The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 7:40 p.m., on July 23,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe this is the third time that we have met and I
have advised you previously of the nature of the Commission's work and
you are familiar with the kind of problems that we have?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are aware of your rights to have an attorney if
you want to--we have already discussed that previously, as I recall,
and you know who I am, and, of course, you are Dial Ryder and you
work at the Irving Sports Shop, and we have had previous testimony
concerning the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald may have had some
work done on his rifle in your sports shop.
When I talked to you previously, I asked you if I recall correctly
about any conversations that you might have had with a newspaper
reporter from The Dallas Times Herald; do you recall me asking you
about that?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that you told me that you had
not talked to any newspaper reporters from The Dallas Times Herald in
connection with the story that appeared in that newspaper on November
28, 1963?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And specifically you had said that you had not talked to
a newspaper reporter on the morning of November 28, 1963, although you
did say that on that morning, sometime around about 7:30 a newspaper
reporter did call you from The Dallas Times Herald and told you that
he wanted to talk to you about this whole situation and you refused to
talk to him?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you hung up the telephone and as I recall, you
testified that you then took the receiver off the hook, making it
impossible for any other calls to come into your telephone; is that
correct?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were interviewed by the FBI again on May 18,
1964, and you told them that same story; is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in fact correct?
Mr. RYDER. That's right. It sure is.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to advise you of the fact that we have located the
newspaper reporter who supposedly talked to you that morning and his
name is Hunter Schmidt, Jr., and that he has testified that he came to
work at The Dallas Times Herald that morning and had a lead on this
story that he had gotten from an anonymous telephone call that some
woman made to the FBI and one was made to a television station here in
Dallas telling them that Oswald had had some work done in your sports
shop and I think I previously asked you about this and you said you
didn't have anything to do with those anonymous telephone calls; is
that right?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Schmidt says that he started looking for your name which
he got from somewhere, apparently in connection with the Dallas Police
Department and tracked you down at your home and called you between
7:30 and 8 o'clock on the morning of November 28, 1963, and that
apparently your wife answered the telephone as you were still asleep
and you came to the telephone and you appeared to be sleepy and that
he talked to you for an extended period of time, and that you gave him
the information that subsequently appeared in the newspaper article on
November 28, 1963, in The Dallas Times Herald.
Mr. Schmidt was advised when he testified that you had denied giving
him this story, although you had admitted that some reporter had
called you on the telephone that morning. Is the name Hunter Schmidt
familiar to you at all?
Mr. RYDER. No; it's not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not that was the particular
newspaper reporter that called you that morning?
Mr. RYDER. I couldn't say definitely for sure--like I said--I told them
I had no comment on it and hung the thing up.
Mr. LIEBELER. In addition to the fact that Mr. Schmidt has so
testified, I have been advised that one of Mr. Schmidt's associates was
sitting right there in the office at the time Schmidt called you and
heard the entire conversation between Schmidt and yourself and he said
that Schmidt did talk to you for an extended period of time, or to a
person by the name of Dial Ryder, who gave him this information about
the gun work being done at the Irving Sports Shop and he said he heard
the whole conversation.
Mr. Schmidt has, during the course of his testimony, volunteered to
take a polygraph examination on this whole question as to whether or
not he talked to you that morning and as to whether or not you gave him
the information about the gun ticket and about the three holes that
were drilled in the rifle and all the other information that appeared
in that newspaper story. I am not here to say myself who is telling the
truth, because I don't know, but it is perfectly obvious that one of
you is not telling the truth, either Mr. Schmidt or you. I don't know
what reasons you would have for not telling the truth, and I don't know
what reasons Mr. Schmidt would have for not telling the truth, but I
wonder if on reflection and in view of the statements that I have just
made to you, if you can ponder this whole question and perhaps refresh
your recollection. I don't know whether you talked to this newspaper
reporter or not, but in view of the fact that we have this other
testimony, I wonder if it would in some way refresh your recollection
that in fact you did talk to this man?
Mr. RYDER. No; like I said, the only people I talked to were Mr. Horton
with the FBI and then the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's
department--is the only ones I talked to about this, until, like I
told you--the CBS reporters came out and we made the television deal
after radios and everything got the thing and then we thought we had it
straightened out with them, but as far as that morning, I didn't talk
to anybody over the phone about it except I said I had no comment and
hung up the receiver and then took the receiver back off of the hook
and went on about my business of sleeping on this Sunday morning.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Edith Whitworth?
Mr. RYDER. Let's see--there was a lady from the Washington Press.
Mr. LIEBELER. No; this is a woman who used to run a furniture shop in
Irving, which is down on Irving Boulevard.
Mr. RYDER. No; I don't know her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Greener knows her?
Mr. RYDER. Now, he might--I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any woman by the name of Mrs. Gertrude Hunter
who also lives in Irving and is a friend of Mrs. Whitworth's?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't know them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you aware of the fact that just down Irving Boulevard
from the Irving Sports Shop, a block and a half or so west, there used
to be another gunshop where a man carried guns?
Mr. RYDER. Well, there was a little place down there where he handled
guns--I don't know whether--if he was able to work on them or not,
but it was about two blocks down the street or a block and a half or
something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the west?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And do you know that there used to be a used furniture
shop that was there?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; it's still there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know the people that ran it?
Mr. RYDER. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt is sitting out here in the front office
and I'm going to ask him to come in and have you two gentlemen discuss
this problem, see if there is some way we can resolve this story on
this telephone conversation.
(At this point Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., entered the room.)
Mr. LIEBELER. I have brought Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., into the room
and Mr. Schmidt has previously been sworn as a witness and testified
yesterday on this question. I introduce you to Mr. Dial Ryder.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Mr. Ryder, how do you do?
Mr. LIEBELER. As I have indicated to Mr. Ryder, Mr. Schmidt testified
yesterday that on the morning of November 28, 1963, you came to work in
your office at the Dallas Times Herald and received information of some
sort that possibly Lee Oswald had had some work done on a rifle, on his
rifle or a rifle, in some sports shops or gunshop in the outlying areas
of Dallas. Would you tell us briefly what happened after that, Mr.
Schmidt?
Mr. SCHMIDT. After I got the tip, I traced it down and thought it
was Garland first and I looked it up in the phonebook--the city
directory--and the usual sources that we go through--I looked through
and this Ryder was the only one that I could find, or apparently he was
the one that said what I was looking for.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get Ryder's name in the first place; do you
know?
Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was from a tip around the police station. Now, I
don't remember. I have been trying to remember where--who specifically
it came from, but it was one of the many we were getting at that time.
As I said before, we had several different leads on different stories
and that they were coming in pretty thick, so I don't really remember
where I got the Ryder name, but it came from around the police station,
one of our boys covering this angle of the assassination, called in
from down there that a Ryder was supposed to have mounted a scope on a
rifle for a customer named Oswald, so I started checking from there,
and like I said yesterday, I thought at first it was Garland and I had
to do it by a process of elimination.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you went through the city directory and you finally
found it in the phone book?
Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe I used the phonebooks and I found this Ryder and
I called him up.
Mr. LIEBELER. About what time in the morning?
Mr. SCHMIDT. Oh, 7:30 or 8--something like that. I come in at 7 o'clock
and it may be a little after 8, but I estimate it was between 7:30
or 8, but it was early, and I called the Ryder and there was a woman
answered the phone.
Then, apparently the Ryder I talked to, and I guess it's this same Dial
Ryder, I'm not sure, but the Ryder I talked to apparently had to get
out of bed, there was a little interval, and come to the phone, and the
person I talked to sounded sleepy. He gave me the information I got and
it was very matter of fact and I believe you used the term "cordial"
yesterday. I guess--that would be it--he was not antagonistic, but he
was very--just very conversational in the question and answer session
and explanation, and he said he had a ticket with the name Oswald on
it and that it could have been the Oswald. He said he didn't remember
for sure what the face looked like with the Oswald ticket, but he
understands--he said he understood that this Oswald had a very common
face for this area and I asked about buying ammunition or how many
time he came in. I think he was sort of vague on that--he wasn't sure
how many times he had been in, and besides talking about the sighting
the rifle and the boring of the holes, that was in essence what it
was, what we had in the paper. I believe I explained to you about the
boresighting bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was some conversation between you about that?
Mr. SCHMIDT. He mentioned the boresighting and I don't think I
understood it fully and that might have been a little incorrect in the
paper, but that was the only thing that this technicality bit about the
boresighting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Ryder, you have been sitting here watching Mr.
Schmidt and listening to his voice; does his voice seem at all familiar
to you?
Mr. RYDER. Sure doesn't--not to me at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what your recollection is of what
happened on that morning?
Mr. RYDER. Well, like I have said before, and it is in my
testimony--the FBI has the same thing--the phone rang. It was roughly
7:30, I would say it was closer to 7:30 than it was 8, and the reporter
asked me had I mounted the scope on the Oswald gun and I told him I
had no comment and I hung up, I mean, I took the receiver off the hook
and that's all I done and all I said here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt, after listening to Mr. Ryder's voice,
can you identify it as the voice you say you spoke to on the telephone
that day, or are you unable to do it?
Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I couldn't honestly identify him by voice now. It was
6 or 7 months ago and I only talked to Ryder once.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ryder, do you know of any other Ryders out there in
the area who would have any knowledge of this gun ticket at the Irving
Sports Shop?
Mr. RYDER. Not that I know of--not that I know of.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as I indicated to you, Mr. Schmidt has volunteered
and requested a polygraph examination to try to clear this matter up,
and I wonder if you have any suggestion that you think of as to how it
might be done?
Mr. RYDER. Well, I'll take the thing if you want me to take it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to ask you to do it, but if you want
to request it and assist the Commission in clearing this matter up,
I think we could make arrangements to have a polygraph examination
administered to both of you.
Mr. RYDER. Well, I'm not one to volunteer for anything.
Mr. SCHMIDT. I am perfectly willing to, because I stand beside that
story. I don't know this man personally, if this is the Ryder of the
gun shop, the Irving Sports Shop, and the same one that identified
himself that morning--that was the information I got from him and I
don't have any reason to lie about it, you know, I get the same amount
of pay, I don't get any extra money for that story and I didn't even
get a byline for the story. I knew that it would be just part of a
story. So, I feel like I am a professional with my business and I just
don't like to be doubted.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not there was anybody else in
your office at the time you heard this conversation that you had with
Ryder?
Mr. SCHMIDT. There were several men around there but I'm not sure
whether they recall this conversation or not or whether they were even
paying any attention. There are a couple of men that sit right to my
left and a couple to my right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the Commission has followed the practice of due
regard for the civil rights of the people who have been involved
in this thing and it is not requesting anybody to take a polygraph
examination, and it is not prepared to make an exception in this case
for you, Mr. Ryder. If you want to volunteer to do so, the Commission
will take it under advisement and decide what it wants to do, but it is
not going to request you to do so, and I cannot even put myself in the
position of even asking you to or urging you to or suggesting that you
do so. That's entirely up to you.
Mr. RYDER. Well, like I said, I will take the thing if it boils down to
that. Like I say, and I have contended all along, that I did not talk
to anybody on Thanksgiving Day, that morning. I didn't talk to anybody.
That was my day off.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with any other newspaper
reporters--that afternoon, but of course, that day--which you said you
wanted to enjoy as your day off, but you did go over to the shop that
afternoon and meet the television people, did you not?
Mr. RYDER. Right, that's after the story broke over the radio.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in the newspaper?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; and in the newspaper, and then we got with the CBS boys
and made the little film that they wanted.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to any newspaper reporters at any
time the next day or the day after that about this whole story?
Mr. RYDER. Well, they were all over the place the next day--on
Friday--Friday and Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you still take the position that you had nothing to
do with the original story that came out and you never talked to the
newspaper reporters prior to the time the story came out in The Dallas
Times Herald?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where they got the story?
Mr. RYDER. I still don't know--I kind of felt like where they got it
was over the radio--originally--I don't know. The CBS boys said that
they got it off of the Associated Press wires, is how they got it, or
over the AP.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it is not the ordinary practice, of course, for the
Commission to advise witnesses what kind of an investigation it has
made in connection with this thing, at least, not until the report
comes out, but I think you ought to know that as a result of the
existence of this gun ticket and the story that you told the FBI and
the Commission, the FBI has attempted to find every Oswald in the whole
Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surrounding area and it has found
many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved
out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any
work done in that gunshop, and you should know that none of them ever
did, and you should also know, and I think you probably do by now, that
Lee Oswald could not have had any scope mounted on the rifle that he
used to assassinate the President in your shop, and in fact, I don't
think you claim you did mount that particular scope?
Mr. RYDER. That's right. We have claimed that it wasn't that one. On
the Monday after, well, it was the Monday of the funeral of President
Kennedy, that Mr. Horton came out and I thought at that time I had it
cleared with him that I hadn't mounted the scope on the gun he used to
assassinate the President.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you had not?
Mr. RYDER. That we had not.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you weren't able to remember Lee Harvey Oswald's face
as being the face of the man who had previously been in that shop;
isn't that right?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you couldn't associate any specific gun or any
specific man with that particular work ticket; isn't that right?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any possible suggestions as to where that
work ticket could have come from if it appears, and it certainly does
appear, that no other Oswald came in there and there is no evidence of
any sort to indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald ever had any other rifle
than the one he used to assassinate the President, and he never brought
that one in the sports shop?
Mr. RYDER. All I know is that we had the ticket laying on the workbench
back there and I had written it up and completed the work on it and
the gun had been picked up. Now, as to whether it was Lee Oswald, I
couldn't positively identify him or if there was another one out there
right now I could not identify anybody if they said they did bring it
in.
Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollection, you wrote that gun
ticket sometime in the early part of November; is that right?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are certain that you wrote it up before November
22?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are not able to associate that particular ticket
with any particular gun in your own mind?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I also recall that when I asked you questions about this
before, you indicated that possibly we could fix the date on which
this ticket had been written because you had written it with a pencil
and you said you remembered you had gone to Dallas on that particular
day, and that you used a pencil to get some materials from a wholesale
shop. Of course, the FBI, as you now know, has gone and has found out
every day that you ever went to Dallas to get gun materials and asked
you if you could identify the time and the date by reviewing this list
of materials that you got from the wholesale house in Dallas and you
weren't able to associate it with any particular day you used a pencil.
Mr. RYDER. Right; he had 2 or 3 days there that he showed me some
copies--actually, he gave me some dates that I came to town and signed
and there were 2 or 3 days there in that period that I had signed with
a pencil, and it could have been that some of those days I had a pencil
laying handy and I just picked it up rather than taking my pen out of
my shirt.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be surprised if the Commission concluded, after
this investigation that the FBI conducted and the questioning that we
have done, that there was never any man in there by the name of Oswald
with any gun at all?
Mr. RYDER. Yeah--like I said--all I've got is that ticket with his name
on it and the work being done.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, at this point I think we might as well conclude the
deposition. The Commission will take under advisement Mr. Schmidt's
request to have a polygraph examination administered to him, and I
am advised by one of the U.S. attorneys here that one of the other
reporters over at the newspaper does remember the conversation and we
will take his deposition tomorrow. If you want to have a polygraph
examination administered to you, after reflecting on this, or if you
have anything further to say about the whole thing, contact Miss Stroud
here at the U.S. attorneys' office, if you want to.
Mr. RYDER. Okay. Is that all?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that's all. Thanks a lot, Mr. Ryder.