The testimony of Pamela Mumford was taken at 12:30 p.m., on May 19,
1964, at 611 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A.
Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Miss Mumford was
accompanied by her attorney, Mr. C. C. Dillavou.
Pamela Mumford, called as a witness herein, having been first duly
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr. BALL. You received a letter, didn't you, from Mr. Rankin, as
counsel for the Commission, advising you that we would request you to
give your deposition?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes; that's right.
Mr. BALL. And you also received a copy of the joint resolution of
the Congress, didn't you, authorizing the Commission to proceed to
investigate the facts concerning the assassination of President Kennedy?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you willingly give your deposition today, do you not?
Miss MUMFORD. I do.
Mr. BALL. To tell us all the facts that you might know to assist us in
this investigation?
Miss MUMFORD. Right.
Mr. BALL. Your name is Pamela Mumford?
Miss MUMFORD. Right.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Miss MUMFORD. 153 North New Hampshire Avenue, Los Angeles 4.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Miss MUMFORD. Secretary.
Mr. BALL. A legal secretary?
Miss MUMFORD. Legal secretary.
Mr. BALL. And you work for the firm of Dillavou & Cox, do you?
Miss MUMFORD. Right.
Mr. BALL. That is in a building at 6th and Grand, Los Angeles, Calif.?
Miss MUMFORD. Right.
Mr. BALL. Now, because of the fact that you will not appear before the
Commission, and the members of the Commission will have to read this
deposition, they would like to know something about you: Where you were
born, your education. So, just go ahead and tell me all you can about
yourself.
Miss MUMFORD. Well, I was born in the Fiji Islands in 1941, and my
father was transferred to Australia in 1951. I was brought up and went
to school in Australia until 1961.
And then I traveled to England, where I worked for a period of a year.
I went to Europe and then I obtained a working visa to come to the
United States.
I worked in New York for 8 months and then my friend and I traveled
through the United States and Mexico on our way to Los Angeles where we
intended to remain.
Mr. BALL. Now, what was your friend's name?
Miss MUMFORD. Patricia Winston.
Mr. BALL. And she left Australia with you, did she?
Miss MUMFORD. She left with me, yes. We had been traveling together for
2 years. And she also made the journey through the States and through
Mexico with me. That takes us up to Los Angeles.
Mr. BALL. When did you arrive in Los Angeles?
Miss MUMFORD. In the first week of November 1963.
Mr. BALL. Is Patricia Winston a legal secretary also?
Miss MUMFORD. No; Patricia is an occupational therapist, who was also
born in the Fiji Islands and raised in Australia. Our families were
friends.
And she was unable to obtain work in California owing to certain
California laws. She had to sit for some exam to enable her to work
here.
So, finally, she returned home to Australia in January, mid-January.
And she is there now.
Mr. BALL. As of 1964?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How old is Patricia Winston?
Miss MUMFORD. She is 23.
Mr. BALL. You took a trip into Mexico last fall, didn't you?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And did you travel from New York to Mexico?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, we traveled by bus on a scheme which allowed us
to travel on Trailways buses for a period of 3 months for a certain
amount. We just got on and off at various places we wanted to see: For
instance, Washington, D.C.; Miami, where we stayed a week; then we went
across to New Orleans, down through Texas to Laredo, and from Laredo we
crossed the border also by bus and went to Monterrey.
We spent one day in Monterrey and left by bus at 7:30 p.m. at
Monterrey, and it was on that bus that we met Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Where did you buy your ticket to Mexico?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, the ticket we had on this deal enabled us only to
travel in the States, not in Mexico.
So, we bought the ticket on the bus at Laredo and that enabled us to
stop off in Monterrey. But the ticket was from Laredo to Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. And from what company did you buy the ticket?
Miss MUMFORD. As far as I can remember, it was a bus company called
Transporter del Norte.
Mr. BALL. And did you buy the bus ticket in Laredo at the Trailways bus
depot?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What date did you buy the bus ticket?
Miss MUMFORD. It must have been September 25.
Mr. BALL. And you left Laredo at what time?
Miss MUMFORD. Early September the 26th.
Mr. BALL. Didn't you leave the bus depot at Laredo on September 25th,
about 10 o'clock in the morning, or was it September 26?
Miss MUMFORD. September 26. Now, hold on. We had one day in Monterrey
and one night in Monterrey. We left Monterrey, I know, on the night of
September 26 at 7:30 p.m.
Mr. BALL. And you had come down to Monterrey from Laredo the day
before, hadn't you?
Miss MUMFORD. The day before, yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, on the way from Laredo to Monterrey you didn't see
Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You saw him on a bus that left Monterrey?
Miss MUMFORD. That left Monterrey. But he had traveled from Laredo on
that same bus.
Mr. BALL. How do you know that?
Miss MUMFORD. He told us.
Mr. BALL. Now, you got on the bus at Monterrey on the evening of
September 26 at 7:30 p.m., you just told me?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what was the company that operated that bus, do you know?
Miss MUMFORD. That was also Transporter del Norte.
Mr. BALL. And were there the same accommodations for all travelers?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes; there were. There were four seats in the front that
were occupied by English-speaking people. But, having got on so late in
the journey, we were taken down to the back to sit with the Mexicans.
And we were the only English-speaking people at the back of the bus.
Mr. BALL. All others were Mexican-speaking?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Now, who were the English-speaking people that you mentioned?
Will you describe them?
Miss MUMFORD. There was a young English couple who were traveling down
to the Yucatan to study the Indians and their way of life.
There was an elderly English gentleman in his mid- or late-sixties, I
should imagine. He told us during the journey that he had lived on and
off in Mexico for 25 years.
Then there was the young Texan, Lee Harvey Oswald, and Patricia and
myself.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you first boarded the bus did you speak to the
English-speaking people?
Miss MUMFORD. We got on and Oswald heard Patricia and I talking. And we
had two heavy overnight bags, and he told us later that he had turned
to his companion, who was the middle-aged English gentleman, and said,
"I wonder how you say 'How can I help you' in Spanish", which gave us
the opinion later that he couldn't speak the language: couldn't speak
Spanish.
He took us for two Spanish girls, I guess, and was going to help us
with our luggage.
Mr. BALL. Did he help you with your luggage?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You went on to the back of the bus?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You didn't say anything to the four English-speaking people
when you first got on the bus?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. And they didn't speak to you?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. When did you first speak to any of these four?
Miss MUMFORD. Oswald was the first one we spoke to. He left his seat
and came down to the back of the bus to speak to us.
Mr. BALL. That was after the bus had left Monterrey?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And while it was en route?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did he say to you?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, he said that he had heard us speaking English and
wondered where we came from.
He then told us the story of how he had thought we were Mexican and was
going to help us if he could speak the language.
Mr. BALL. What did he say? Can you tell me his language as close as you
can?
Miss MUMFORD. No, I can't really put it into his words; not at that
stage. He then proceeded to tell us about himself.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Miss MUMFORD. I will have to refer to notes. Oh, yes; the first thing
he told us was that he was from Fort Worth, in Texas. And he wanted to
know where we had been, and we told him we were Australians.
He wanted to know the places we had visited. We told him.
And he mentioned that he had been in Japan while he was in the Marines,
and that was the closest he had got to Australia and that he would very
much like to go to Australia.
He then told us that he had been to Russia and asked whether we had
ever been to Russia. We said no, and we told him of a friend of ours, a
fellow Australian, who had been to Moscow, and her experiences there.
And we asked him what he was doing in Russia and did he have trouble
getting in. He said that he was studying there. He had an apartment in
Moscow and was studying. We didn't ask him what he was studying.
At this stage he showed us his passport that had a Russian stamp on it;
some sort of a Russian stamp. And he didn't mention his Russian wife at
all. But we noticed he had a gold wedding ring on his left hand.
We made about three stops or four stops every 2 or 3 hours, and he
didn't speak to us during these stops. We got speaking to the other
British people.
Mr. BALL. Did he speak to you again after that time that he first came
back?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes; oh, about 2 hours before we arrived in Mexico City
he asked us whether we had accommodations arranged there. And we said
no, we had a vague idea from a book called "Mexico on Five Dollars a
Day" where we were going to stay.
And he suggested that on previous trips to Mexico City he had stayed
at a place called the Hotel Cuba, and he recommended it for clean and
cheap living.
And he then made a crack that he wasn't suggesting the Hotel Cuba
because he was going to be there; he just suggested it to help us.
And we decided that we wouldn't take him up on his suggestion; that we
would go our own way.
Then we arrived in the Mexico City bus station and he didn't speak to
us, attempt to speak to us at all. He was one of the first off the bus
and the last I remember seeing him he was standing across the end of
the room.
Mr. BALL. At the bus station?
Miss MUMFORD. At the bus station. And we left by taxi.
Mr. BALL. Then you had two conversations with him?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Or more?
Miss MUMFORD. No; two. During the trip I engaged the middle-aged
English gentleman in conversation, asking him about the weather, and
what it was like usually. And he said, "The young man traveling beside
me has traveled to Mexico also. Why don't you talk to him?" And that
was all.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you talked to the English gentleman; the
elderly man?
Miss MUMFORD. Just standing outside at one of the rest stops, standing
outside waiting to board the bus.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any one of these four people as the bus was
en route, except Oswald; the four English-speaking people?
Miss MUMFORD. Not on the bus. We did speak to the young English couple
for a while, told them where we had lived in London, and they had told
us very vaguely, I remember, that they were also traveling through the
United States, but their main aim wasn't to go to the tourist resorts
in America but to go down to Mexico.
Mr. BALL. Did you get their names? Did they tell you their names?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ask them their name?
Miss. MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. When did you talk to this elderly English gentleman who was
sitting beside Oswald when you first got on the bus?
Miss MUMFORD. The only time we talked to him was at one of the rest
stops outside the bus. And I just happened to ask him about the
weather, and that was the only conversation.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything else to you on the trip except that there
was a young man sitting next to him that had been in Mexico before?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. That's all he said?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. About how many people were on this bus?
Miss MUMFORD. There must have been about 14 rows on both sides, with
two people on each. About 50, 55. It was crowded.
Mr. BALL. I have a note here of a statement you made to an agent for
the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 18th of December in which it
was reported that you estimated about 39 passengers.
Do you recall that? Did you ever say that?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, these were conflicting reports, naturally. The FBI
questioned Patricia at our apartment and he then questioned me here
and, naturally, two people get different ideas on a bus load.
But, it was well crowded. There were a lot of children on the bus. I
should imagine there would be--they were long, great big, long, heavy
buses.
Mr. BALL. Were there any vacant seats when you got on?
Miss MUMFORD. Quite a few people boarded in Monterrey. And we were a
bit frightened that we wouldn't get a seat together. But I think we
were one of the few people who got on first.
Mr. BALL. What part of the bus did you sit in?
Miss MUMFORD. In the middle of the bus, more towards the back than the
front.
Mr. BALL. Did the English man ever come back while you were being
seated and speak in Spanish to any of the Mexican people?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You don't recall that the English man ever came back and
asked the Mexican people to make room for you to sit down?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. At the bus stops, you say, you did not talk to Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No. He was the first off the bus and the last back on. He
had a meal at every bus stop.
Mr. BALL. Oh, he did?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. He ate at every bus stop?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes. I never saw him ordering. I took it that he didn't
speak the language, but he always managed to order himself a large
meal, because he never seemed to get it over to them what he wanted.
Mr. BALL. What gave you the impression that he did not speak the
language?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, simply that on arriving on the bus he told us--when
we had boarded the bus he had told us that he had turned to the English
gentleman and asked "I wonder how you say 'Can I help you' in Spanish."
Mr. BALL. You told him when he came back to talk to you that you had
had a friend travel in Russia?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you say you had mentioned her experiences. What did you
tell him about that?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, we said that she had come back and told us that
Moscow was a beautiful city and she had gathered the impression that
they were being taken on a tour and shown only what they wanted to be
shown.
She, being a school teacher, asked a lot of questions of their female
guide, and the questions just were evaded or not answered.
And she said she got the impression that she was told to say certain
things and nothing else.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald make any remark to that?
Miss MUMFORD. No; the only remark he made on his life in Moscow was
that he had had a lot of trouble getting out. That's all he said.
Mr. BALL. Did he make any statement at all concerning his life in the
Soviet Union; whether he had enjoyed the stay there or not?
Miss MUMFORD. No; he gave me the impression that he was the average,
normal American citizen who had gone over there and had wanted to get
out and couldn't get out for some red tape reasons.
Mr. BALL. Did he say anything or make any mention of politics?
Miss MUMFORD. No; never.
Mr. BALL. Did he mention anything about communism, socialism, or
anything of that sort?
Miss MUMFORD. No; he never said anything about his political views or
even mention politics at all.
Mr. BALL. You did see his passport, though?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How did he happen to show you this passport?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, I think it was rather to prove that he had been in
Russia. I think he was trying to find places that we hadn't been that
he had, and he just--in fact, he left us at the seat to go up and take
his passport from his traveling bag and bring it down to show us.
Mr. BALL. Had he told you his name before that?
Miss MUMFORD. He never mentioned his name once.
Mr. BALL. He never did?
Miss MUMFORD. He never introduced himself; no.
Mr. BALL. How did you know his name?
Miss MUMFORD. We didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you notice the name on the passport?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, I didn't; no. Pat says it rang a bell when the rest
of the business came up, and we recognized him on television. And she
said, when the name came through on the television, it did ring a bell
with her, but she said even then she couldn't picture that name on the
passport.
Mr. BALL. You did see the name on the passport, did you?
Miss MUMFORD. Well, yes, he must have shown it to us. I can't really
remember.
Mr. BALL. But you didn't remember the name?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You made no note of it?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. Did the elderly Englishman ever make a statement to you as to
whether or not the young man sitting next to him on the bus, that is,
Oswald, had been to Mexico City before, or been to Mexico before?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes; Oswald must have told him he had been there numerous
times, because this Englishman did refer us, or did refer me to Oswald
and say "He has been there before. Why don't you ask him?"
Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Mexico City or Mexico before?
Miss MUMFORD. I think we were speaking about Mexico generally, because
we had contemplated a trip down to Acapulco, and I was interested in
the difference in temperatures.
Mr. BALL. Was that at a bus stop?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes, outside the bus; a rest stop.
Mr. BALL. Now, you gained some impression, didn't you, from talking to
the English man, that he had not known Oswald before?
Miss MUMFORD. Only by his reference to Oswald as "the young man sitting
next to me." They were talking quite a lot, the four of them.
In the first two seats were the young English couple, and directly
behind them were Oswald, sitting on the aisle, and the Englishman,
sitting near the window. And we could hear them talking a lot, and
laughing, when we were sitting in the back, wondering what was going on.
Mr. BALL. Did you gain the impression from anything else said by the
Englishman that he was not traveling in the company of Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.