Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't want to lose his Russian.
Mr. JENNER. Was there anything said by you or Gary that he could speak
to her in Russian and she could speak with him in Russian but at the
same time she could be taught English?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Neither you nor your husband Gary urged that alternative?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; we just gave up.
Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a gracious
person, ungracious, was he rude, or was he not? Was he appreciative?
Mrs. GIBSON. He could be very, very rude. He appreciated absolutely
nothing you did for him. He never thanked you for anything. He seemed
to expect it of you.
Mr. JENNER. We are going to get into all that eventually, but you and
your husband Gary were very helpful to him, reasonably so in any event.
You did a number of things for him; did you not?
Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say we did a number of things for him that we didn't
have to do, and we certainly didn't need to do, and we certainly didn't
owe him anything. But we did try to help.
Mr. JENNER. Now in the face of all that, you say that at no time did he
express any appreciation or thanks.
Mrs. GIBSON. I think the only time he ever said thank you was when we
moved him from Fort Worth to Dallas. I think it was a very brief thank
you, and that was that.
Mr. JENNER. But otherwise, he neither expressed nor did you feel any
evidence of appreciation on his part for what you and your husband did?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I didn't feel anything. I fed his wife quite a few
meals. He never offered me any reimbursement of any type for it. He
never thanked me. He just seemed to act as if we owed it to him, and I
felt that I didn't owe him a thing.
Mr. JENNER. What about Marina, on the other hand, in this connection?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think Marina was appreciative.
Mr. JENNER. Discounting the difficulty of communication?
Mrs. GIBSON. I had the feeling she was appreciative; yes. But she was
exceedingly lazy. She would do nothing to help. The only thing she
would do would be to take care of her child. She would do this, thank
goodness, but otherwise she would do nothing to help. She wouldn't help
with the dishes or clearing the table or preparing the meal, cleaning
the apartment, anything pertaining to the extra work I had to do
because she was there. Mrs. Hall had the same complaint.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Hall expressed this complaint to you?
Mrs. GIBSON. Exactly the same complaint: that Marina slept very late,
which she didn't do in my apartment but she did there, that she did
not help with the house, that she didn't do anything really; just sat
around and took care of the baby.
Mr. JENNER. Over this period--let me fix the period of time. You first
met them, your present recollection is, sometime the latter part of
August 1962. When was the last time you saw either of the Oswalds?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, when I returned a manuscript to Lee Oswald, it could
have been either the end of November or the middle of December. I am
not sure which.
Mr. JENNER. 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. 1962; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Over this period of approximately, let us say, 3-1/2 months
in 1962, how many times did Marina stay in your home? You have given
one occasion.
Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been at least two or three, no more than that.
Mr. JENNER. Over that 3-1/2 month period, the Oswalds were in your home
no more than two or three times that is on visits, one or the other of
them?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; he was. She was only there one other time to visit. He
popped in and out frequently. She was in Fort Worth at the time, and I
didn't see her.
Mr. JENNER. Going back to this following or second day of Marina's
visit in August, I take it your stepmother picked her up and took her
to the dentist on the second day as well?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Did she return to Fort Worth that day?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think she took a bus that afternoon to Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Did she go to the bus station by herself or was she taken?
Mrs. GIBSON. My stepmother took her.
Mr. JENNER. Did you learn where the Oswalds were living or staying at
that time? That is, is this the first occasion that you met them?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they must have been staying at that duplex.
Mr. JENNER. On Mercedes Street?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; that is where they must have been staying.
Mr. JENNER. Were you ever in that home or apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I was.
Mr. JENNER. When was the first occasion you were in that duplex?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was Sunday afternoon somewhere, it must have been about
2 weeks or more after I first met them. Gary and I went over to visit
them in Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. Weekday or weekend?
Mrs. GIBSON. Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. On a Sunday. This was then in September of 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been early September or late August.
Mr. JENNER. This was a visit on your part?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Were they aware of the fact that you were going to visit
them?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived there, was anyone there?
Mrs. GIBSON. I am not very clear on that point. It is possible that
Lee's mother was just leaving. I am not sure. She was either just
leaving or she had just left before we came. I don't remember. I am not
too clear on if I met her passing as she was going out or if I didn't
meet her.
Mr. JENNER. How did you know where they lived?
Mrs. GIBSON. Lee I believe--Lee gave us their address.
Mr. JENNER. On what occasion did he give you their address?
Mrs. GIBSON. It must have been one of the times he stopped by, dropped
in. I don't really know.
Mr. JENNER. I don't know as I asked you this. Did he visit at your home
at anytime during those first 2 days that Marina stayed with you?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he came to visit the first evening.
Mr. JENNER. Had you expected him?
Mrs. GIBSON. I had thought that he might be coming. I believe she had
told my stepmother that Lee was dropping by or my stepmother had told
me. Somebody had said something.
Mr. JENNER. That was the first occasion on which you met Lee Harvey
Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did he stay the evening and then leave?
Mrs. GIBSON. He stayed about an hour and then he left.
Mr. JENNER. And what did you notice with respect to the relations
between Lee Oswald and Marina on that first occasion?
Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say they got along fairly well.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to whether he was employed at
that time?
Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't get any impression one way or the other.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get any impression in that respect when you and
your husband, Gary, visited them on the Sunday afternoon you have
mentioned?
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe he talked about his employment, but I am not
sure. He must have. They must have talked about it.
Mr. JENNER. Your impression was he was then working at some kind of
employment?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I mean it was just normal to assume. He had an
apartment and a child and a wife. He must have been working.
Mr. JENNER. Were there any others than those you have mentioned who
were at the apartment on that Sunday afternoon; you have mentioned the
possibility of Lee Harvey Oswald's mother and, of course, there was Lee
and the baby and Marina.
Mrs. GIBSON. Later on in the early evening some people came to visit,
some of the Russian colony from Fort Worth and Dallas.
I don't recall the names. I think Mrs. Hall and Alex were there.
Otherwise, there must have been four other people, four or five other
people besides them.
Mr. JENNER. I will mention some names. Mamantov?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know that name.
Mr. JENNER. Meller?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. You are familiar with the name Meller, aren't you?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER. I think you mentioned Mrs. Hall and Kleinlerer.
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. As possibly having been there. Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is a possibility. The more I think about it, it is
possible, but I am not sure.
Mr. JENNER. You were acquainted with or aware of the Clarks?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe I knew them.
Mr. JENNER. They were friends of your father and stepmother?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I am not positive that I knew them very well, but I
have a feeling, the name rings a bell definitely.
Mr. JENNER. Are you familiar with the name George Bouhe?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was George Bouhe there?
Mrs. GIBSON. I am not sure, but the more I think about it, you asked me
this question earlier, I think he was there. I think he was the extra
man that was there.
Mr. JENNER. What impression did you get as to whether it had been
expected that this group was to come by or did they just happen by?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I think they just dropped in.
Mr. JENNER. Did they stay very long?
Mrs. GIBSON. I left before they left. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. What was the nature of the conversation on that occasion?
Mrs. GIBSON. I couldn't really tell. A lot of it was in Russian. You
couldn't tell what was going on.
Mr. JENNER. These were by and large Russian-speaking people?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Describe the apartment to me, will you please?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, my. Well, it was rather nice. It was clean. There was
a living room and a kitchen and a bedroom and a bath, hardwood floors,
good paint. It was a duplex. A large backyard. The furniture was
rundown but it was usable. All in all it was not a bad apartment.
Mr. JENNER. What impressions did you get of Lee Harvey Oswald
throughout the 3-1/2 month period, as to his dress and his self-respect
and care?
Mrs. GIBSON. He was not a very clean person. In fact, I'd say he wasn't
clean at all. He seemed to wear the same shirt for week after week.
Every time we saw him he had the same clothes on. Fairly clean-shaven,
but otherwise he was definitely not a clean person in dress.
Mr. JENNER. And Marina on the other hand?
Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say she was fairly clean.
Mr. JENNER. What was Lee Oswald's attitude and his posture with respect
to other people? Was he reasonably polite and respectful? How did he
conduct himself in the presence of others?
Mrs. GIBSON. It would depend on who the people were. He could be very
polite if he wished. He could be very sarcastic, very blunt if he
wished. He could be a very friendly person if he wished, and he could
be very quiet if he wished. It just depended on who the people were.
Mr. JENNER. Which was predominant?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, I don't know. It was really a mixture. He was easy,
not too hard to get along with as far as we were concerned. We argued
with him but it was always a friendly argument. When I saw him with
other people, he was as friendly, smiling, but with his wife he could
be very quiet, very brooding. That is about all I can tell you.
Mr. JENNER. It has been said of him by some people that he was somewhat
of an introvert, very quiet, not seeking the company of others.
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I wouldn't say he would seek out company, but when
they came or when he went to visit them or us, he was always very--he
didn't seem to be introverted; no. He seemed to be quite friendly,
quite extroverted, no trouble expressing himself. He didn't sit in
silence for hours.
Mr. JENNER. What about his regard, his attitude toward others with
respect to--that is did he--let's take your father's folks, did he have
respect for your father? Did he like him?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he liked my father very much. He had a great deal of
respect for him.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband Gary?
Mrs. GIBSON. I would imagine he did.
Mr. JENNER. What is your impression?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I'd say Marina probably liked Gary more than Lee,
though.
Mr. JENNER. Lee did visit at your home?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he did on occasion seek out your husband?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And your husband occasionally sought out him?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did Lee express any views with respect to others in that
milieux, that company, the Halls, the Mellers, the Clarks, Bouhe, the
Voshinins, the Russian emigree colony?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he liked Mr. Bouhe very much and he expected a lot
of him. I think he thought that Mr. Bouhe might be his key to getting
a good job. Mrs. Hall now, he liked her, but he said she was a crude,
coarse woman. I think maybe he really deeply didn't like her that well.
Alex--what did you say his name was?
Mr. JENNER. Kleinlerer.
Mrs. GIBSON. He didn't like him at all, and the other people you
mention, I imagine he has talked about them, but I can't place them, so
I don't know his opinion on them.
Mr. JENNER. These people were trying to help, were they not?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; especially George Bouhe.
Mr. JENNER. What was Lee's attitude toward that effort?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know. I don't know why they were trying to help
him. He didn't deserve it. They didn't owe it to him. Yet he seemed
to, I got the feeling he thought they did. Why, I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Did you get the feeling at any time that he was
contemptuous of any of them?
Mrs. GIBSON. When they didn't come up with something he wanted; yes.
I'd say George Bouhe was the one that stuck by him the most, more than
my father, more than any of them. Mrs. Hall got disgusted with the
whole thing, and especially, well, with both of them really, a lot with
Marina and a lot with Lee.
She got very disgusted with the whole situation. My father did, too.
George Bouhe seemed to be the only one that sort of stuck by them.
Mr. JENNER. Why did your father become disgusted with them?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, just in general, with Lee's lack of being able to
get a good job or being able to really stick with anything, his
treatment of his wife, his treatment of his fellowmen, just his total
indifference. My father just got very aggravated with the whole thing,
got aggravated with Marina for taking Lee's abuse, and he just got fed
up.
Mr. JENNER. Now, there came an occasion when he either lost or quit his
position in Fort Worth, isn't that so?
Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so.