Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his birthday?
Mrs. GIBSON. December 24, I think 1939.
Mr. JENNER. So he was older, 4 years older than you?
Mrs. GIBSON. He was 4 years older than me; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you were subsequently divorced?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. You and Mr. Taylor. And when was that?
Mrs. GIBSON. Our divorce became final, I believe, the 15th of April of
last year.
Mr. JENNER. Of 1963?
Mrs. GIBSON. 1963.
Mr. JENNER. I take it there is a waiting period then?
Mrs. GIBSON. Three months.
Mr. JENNER. So the decree was entered the 15th of January?
Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know. I didn't enter it. I left Dallas and
asked him to please divorce me.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mrs. GIBSON. I didn't want to go through all the rigmarole of getting a
divorce; no. I wanted to get out of Dallas right then.
Mr. JENNER. Were you living together as man and wife during all of the
year 1962?
Mrs. GIBSON. Until November, the last part of November of 1962; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Had you been separated prior to that time?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; in 1961, I believe.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a child?
Mrs. GIBSON. One child.
Mr. JENNER. Born of that marriage?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that child's name?
Mrs. GIBSON. Curtis Lee Taylor.
Mr. JENNER. When was that child born?
Mrs. GIBSON. February 10, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. While living at 3519 Fairmount in Dallas during the year
1962, did you become acquainted with a lady by the name of Marina
Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you also become acquainted with a gentleman by the name
of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With whom did you become acquainted first?
Mrs. GIBSON. Marina Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me when, as closely as you can fix it. Let me put
it this way. Tell me first the circumstances under which you became
acquainted, what led up to it and how it occurred, and then fix as
closely as you can when in 1962 you did become acquainted.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, my stepmother and my father called me up.
Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother is Jeanne De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. GIBSON. Jeanne; and my father called me up one evening and asked
me----
Mr. JENNER. At your apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. At my apartment; and asked me if I would please take care
of Marina Oswald's child while she went to the dentist, and could she
stay overnight with me because she had two appointments in a row, one
on one day and one the next day, and I said all right. And as for the
date, I imagine you know it better than I do.
Mr. JENNER. I don't know anything better than you do.
Mrs. GIBSON. If you give me the date on the pads. I don't remember the
dates at all.
Mr. JENNER. Was it the month of September?
Mrs. GIBSON. No. As I said, I thought it was before September.
Mr. JENNER. Before September?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you remember anything about the weather?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was very hot, but I don't remember the month. It could
have been----
Mr. JENNER. Could it have been in August?
Mrs. GIBSON. It could have been the latter part of August. It seems to
me that would be about right.
Mr. JENNER. Can you recall anything about what your father and/or your
stepmother said to you in identifying these people? You were naturally
curious as to who they were?
Mrs. GIBSON. They told me that they were recently, Marina and Lee were
recently here from Russia, and hadn't been in Dallas very long, or Fort
Worth, wherever they were staying, and that she had a child the same
age as mine, and that my stepmother thought it would be very nice if
we got acquainted. And she said Marina was around my age, and asked if
I would please help them out since they didn't have any room in their
apartment to keep her while she had these dental appointments.
Mr. JENNER. That is, they didn't have any room in the De
Mohrenschildts' apartment?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. From that conversation you became aware, had the impression
that your father and your stepmother had had some prior acquaintance
with these people?
Mrs. GIBSON. I think they just recently met them.
Mr. JENNER. That was the impression?
Mrs. GIBSON. That was the impression I got.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what day of the week--that is, not the
particular date as such, but was it a weekday, a Saturday, or a Sunday?
Mrs. GIBSON. It was a weekday. Whether it was in the beginning of the
week or the middle or the end I don't remember, but it was a weekday.
Mr. JENNER. What time of day was it?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they called me the night before, but it was in the
early morning of the next day.
Mr. JENNER. That you met Marina?
Mrs. GIBSON. That I met Marina.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina come alone?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; my stepmother brought her and the child.
Mr. JENNER. That was in the morning?
Mrs. GIBSON. In the morning; that is right.
Mr. JENNER. Describe your apartment, will you please?
Mrs. GIBSON. How do you mean describe it?
Mr. JENNER. How many rooms, living room, bedroom, two bedrooms,
kitchen, dining room?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, there are five rooms, I guess, in all.
Mr. JENNER. And they consisted of?
Mrs. GIBSON. Living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom.
There was a small adjoining room to the bedroom but it wouldn't be
classified as a whole room.
Mr. JENNER. Sort of more of a dressing room?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For what purpose were you employing that room at that time?
Mrs. GIBSON. My child slept in that room.
Mr. JENNER. Where did you folks, that is yourself and your husband,
normally sleep?
Mrs. GIBSON. We slept in the living room.
Mr. JENNER. That was your normal practice?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. So that the bedroom you mentioned was not occupied?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; it wasn't.
Mr. JENNER. It was not in use, rather, at the time that Marina stayed
with you?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; it was used as a playroom really for my son Curtis.
Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother brought Marina and the baby to your home?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Was your husband home at that time?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think so.
Mr. JENNER. That is it was at a time when he would have departed for
work?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; I believe he had already gone to work.
Mr. JENNER. You said that Marina was to receive some dental care?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did she remain in the apartment all day after she arrived?
Mrs. GIBSON. After she came back from the dentist, she stayed there,
I think she had a tooth, one or two pulled, and she stayed there that
afternoon, after she came back from the dentist.
Mr. JENNER. Your stepmother brought her and then your stepmother took
her to the dentist?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. They returned?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. That afternoon.
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Did Marina remain and the baby remain with you overnight
and into the next day?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Where did Marina and her child stay that evening?
Mrs. GIBSON. They slept in the bedroom.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't lodge her child, June, in the room in which your
son Curtis was?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. When did you first meet Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. I believe it was on the evening of the first day that
Marina stayed with me.
Mr. JENNER. Did someone bring him or did he come alone?
Mrs. GIBSON. As far as I know, he came alone.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to the place from which he had
come?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know where he had come from.
Mr. JENNER. But he came alone?
Mrs. GIBSON. As far as I know; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was Marina able to speak English?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; not a word.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any problems in that connection?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I got a little dictionary and tried to figure out a
few words, but it was very hard to communicate with her.
Mr. JENNER. I take it then from your remark that you yourself are not
fluent in Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you understand Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. A few words.
Mr. JENNER. Your father speaks Russian fluently, does he not?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he does.
Mr. JENNER. And your stepmother?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Despite their fluency in Russian, you never acquired any
fluency? You just didn't acquire any familiarity with Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. No.
Mr. JENNER. Except your understanding of a few words?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I didn't.
Mr. JENNER. In any event you are unable to speak it?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. When Oswald came to your house that evening, did he speak
English or Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. He spoke English to us and Russian to Marina.
Mr. JENNER. When he arrived, did he speak with his child?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. In what language did he speak with the child?
Mrs. GIBSON. Russian.
Mr. JENNER. That was not merely small talk? All of his conversation
with his child was in Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. Some was small talk. You could tell that he was just
playing around, and when he really talked to her, it was in Russian. Of
course once in a while he'd lapse into English.
Mr. JENNER. You minded the child June while Marina was at the dentist?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And also the following day while she was at the dentist?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. How did you get along with the child?
Mrs. GIBSON. Not very well.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us about that.
Mrs. GIBSON. Pardon? I didn't understand you.
Mr. JENNER. You say you didn't get along very well with the child.
State it more fully to me factually; what the problems were.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, the minute Marina left, the child would start to
cry. She whimpered all the time. I couldn't feed her. Every time I got
near her she'd scream. She never slept. She's a very difficult child to
get along with. She was not at all affectionate to anybody else but to
her own parents.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think she found it strange to have anyone speak to
her in English as distinguished from Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. I don't know if it was the English. I don't believe she
had ever been with anybody but her parents and I think that might have
had a lot to do with it, plus she was very spoiled, very catered to by
her mother and her father.
Mr. JENNER. There were subsequent occasions when you visited the
Oswalds or they visited you or Marina visited you or you visited Marina?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Drawing on the whole span of your acquaintance with the
Oswalds, rather than merely those first 2 days, did you ever hear Lee
Oswald address his child other than in Russian?
Mrs. GIBSON. Oh, like I said, sometimes he'd lapse into English. I
imagine it was mainly for our benefit, more so than the child's. I
mean normally he probably spoke to the child alone or when he was with
Marina always in Russian. He never spoke English to her ever or even
tried to teach her English, never attempted to.
Mr. JENNER. That is he never spoke to Marina other than in Russian, and
as you say, he never tried to teach her English?
Mrs. GIBSON. He never tried to teach her English, never, not one word.
Mr. JENNER. Did that strike you and your husband Gary as a little out
of the ordinary?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, we told him we thought that it was extremely stupid
and we asked him why, and he said that he didn't want to lose his
Russian. She, of course--in Russia I believe she worked in a pharmacy.
Wasn't she a pharmacist? And therefore we said to be able to get a
license over here she would have to speak English, and it didn't seem
to bother him. I think he didn't like the idea of her having more
education than he did. I think he wanted her to remain solely dependent
on him.
Mr. JENNER. During all the period that you and your husband were
acquainted with the Oswalds, was there ever any discussion about either
of them returning to Russia?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; he did not want to go back.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say that?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes. He disliked Russia just like he disliked the United
States.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression of him? Was he looking for utopia?
Mrs. GIBSON. I'd say so. He didn't agree with communism and he didn't
agree with capitalism. He had his own ideas completely on government.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please call on your recollection and tell us
what you recall as to what his beliefs, political beliefs, were, as he
expressed them?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I'd say that his beliefs were more socialistic than
anything else. I mean he believed in the perfect government, free of
want and need, and free of taxation, free of discrimination, free of
any police force, the right to be able to do exactly what he pleased,
exactly when he pleased, just total and complete freedom in everything.
Mr. JENNER. Did he talk in terms of any obligation to this so-called
perfect state?
Mrs. GIBSON. No. Actually I think he believed in no government
whatsoever, just a perfect place where people lived happily all
together and no religion, nothing of any sort, no ties and no holds to
anything except himself.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever discuss in that connection the necessity for
making a contribution to that society; working himself? Or was this a
Utopia in which he was to be free to do what he pleased, work or not as
he saw fit?
Mrs. GIBSON. I really don't know if he planned to work or not. I don't
know what Lee wanted to do in life. I think he wanted to be a very
important person without putting anything into it at all.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have any impression of resentment on his part?
Mrs. GIBSON. He resented any type of authority. He expected to be the
highest paid immediately, the best liked, the highest skilled. He
resented any people in high places, any people of any authority in
government or, oh, in let's say the police force or anything like
that, or in your Army, Navy, Marines or whatever he was in.
Mr. JENNER. Were there discussions between your husband and him on
these subjects?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; quite frequently. They argued a lot about it.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion--you say he wanted to be the
highest paid, he wanted to be the leader and that sort of thing. Did
your husband raise with him any necessity on his part to qualify
himself for those positions and that high pay?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, my husband told him you can't be something for
nothing. He said you can't expect to get high pay and receive a good
position with no education and no ambition, no particular goal, no
anything. Well, he just expected a lot for nothing.
Mr. JENNER. You have the impression that he was not an ambitious
person, ambitious in the sense of willing to devote himself to an
objective and work toward something?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted.
Mr. JENNER. As distinguished from just being given to him or falling in
his lap?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't think he knew what he wanted, and I don't
think he was too interested in working toward anything. He expected
things to be just given to him on a silver platter. But in his ideas,
he was extremely devoted.
Mr. JENNER. He was devoted to his concepts?
Mrs. GIBSON. To his ideas as to how he thought. You couldn't change his
mind no matter what you said to him.
Mr. JENNER. He was rigid in his views then?
Mrs. GIBSON. Very, very rigid in his ideas.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say about Russia during these periods when you
had these discussions?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, he said he was very disappointed in Russia. Russia
was not what he thought it would be. It was not the ideal place, that
Communism was not the ideal government, that he disliked Communism just
as he disliked capitalism, that he disliked Russia very much.
Mr. JENNER. Did he tell you about his life in Russia? You were curious
about it and your husband too, I assume?
Mrs. GIBSON. Yes; he told us bits and pieces about it, and then of
course he gave us a manuscript to read. He told us quite a bit about
Russia, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you please state what you recall as to what he said
in that connection?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I can't recall any specific thing. I recall that he
said he was quite sick over there; this didn't hold too well. He said
he was treated with a little more deference than the next ordinary
Russian person because he was American, that he had a terrific time
leaving Russia, and that it scared him very much.
Mr. JENNER. You mean terrific in the sense of difficulty?
Mrs. GIBSON. A very difficult time. I think he said it took him a year
to be able to get out of Russia. He almost didn't make it. It scared
him very much. He was supposed to give over his citizenship and become
a citizen of Russia to be able to work there, but he didn't do this,
and he was still able to work there. He didn't know why exactly, but
they allowed him to work there anyway. But they kept pressuring him
to give up his citizenship to be able to work in Russia, get working
papers.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us more about that. Tell us everything you remember as
to what he said about the fact that they pressured him to give up his
citizenship so he could stay in Russia and work.
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, I don't know how you consider pressuring him. They
kept suggesting that he should give up his citizenship to be able to
work in Russia; otherwise, why was he there? If he was there obviously
he wanted to become a Russian. To be able to work in Russia you were
supposed to be a Russian citizen. You had to give up your citizenship.
And he kept objecting to this. I guess he was scared. He didn't really
want to go as far as giving up his American citizenship.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about his course of conduct when
he first went to Russia, any attempted surrender by him of his
citizenship at that time voluntarily?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I don't recall that he did say anything about
voluntarily giving up his citizenship; no. He might have. I don't
recall that.
Mr. JENNER. Was there any discussion as to how he met Marina; and their
courtship and marriage?
Mrs. GIBSON. There was. I don't remember too much of it. I think he
met her in Minsk. I believe he was working there at a factory that
manufactured television chassis, and he met her, I don't know exactly
how. I think he met her when he was sick in the hospital. I don't know
what was wrong with him. And they I guess went out from there, and I
guess, I don't know how long they went out, and they got married.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "went out" you meant began to date?
Mrs. GIBSON. Dating; yes. I don't know exactly what you do in Russia.
And I think she wanted to come to the United States very badly.
Mr. JENNER. Would you elaborate on that, calling of course on your
recollection of what was said which gave you these impressions? That
is, what you learned from her or from conversations with him in her
presence?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; I guess this was rather hearsay. I think she told this
to my stepmother in conversation, that she wanted very much to come to
the United States to make a better life for herself, that she wasn't
very much interested in politics, just in a better place to live.
Supposedly this is the reason she married Lee.
Mr. JENNER. That was your impression in any event?
Mrs. GIBSON. This is what I was told, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing occurred during the period of time that you had
this acquaintanceship with the Oswalds that disabused you of that
impression?
Mrs. GIBSON. No; and I wouldn't say there was a tremendous amount of
love lost between them.
Mr. JENNER. Between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. They quarreled quite a lot.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina
and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian,
always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall
in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions,
physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know
what you would call him, her fiance, Alex----
Mr. JENNER. Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer?
Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so. I don't know his name.
Mr. JENNER. Describe him to us.
Mrs. GIBSON. Describe him?
Mr. JENNER. Physically.
Mrs. GIBSON. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache,
European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks,
very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy
customer. He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few
languages fluently. He, I believe, was born or originated in Paris. I
have no idea what his occupation was. But he did not get along with Lee
at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat
her.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of this occur in your presence?