Mr. JENNER. Tell me about that.
Mr. THORNLEY. He is a Washington reporter who is a rather extreme
leftist, but certainly within the bounds of what is accepted in this
country as non-subversive.
Mr. JENNER. Describe yourself in that respect. Where are you, a
middle-of-the-roader?
Mr. THORNLEY. I would say I am an extreme rightist. I call myself a
libertarian, which is that I believe in the complete sovereignty of
the individual, or at least as much individual liberty as is practical
under any given system.
Mr. JENNER. You don't have to be an extreme rightist to believe in the
sovereignty of the individual.
Mr. THORNLEY. Well, it is getting that way in this country today. At
least most people who listen to me talk call me a rightist. I wouldn't
say so either. I think the political spectrum was fine for France at
the time of the revolution. I don't think it applies to the United
States of America today in any respect whatsoever. I don't think you
can call a man an extreme leftist, rightist, or middle-of-the-roader
and have him classified that simply.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any brothers and sisters?
Mr. THORNLEY. I have two brothers.
Mr. JENNER. What do they do?
Mr. THORNLEY. They go to, one of them goes to junior college, I
believe, and the other one goes to high school. They are in Whittier,
Calif.
Mr. JENNER. Are your folks alive?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What does your father do?
Mr. THORNLEY. He is a photoengraver.
Mr. JENNER. Let's get back to Oswald. Describe this individual to me.
First describe him physically.
Mr. THORNLEY. Physically, I would say he was slightly below average
height. Had, as I recall, gray or blue eyes. Always had, or almost
always had a petulant expression on his face. Pursed-up lip expression,
either a frown or a smile, depending on the circumstances. Was of
average build, and his hair was brown, and tending to, like mine,
tending to bald a little on each side.
Mr. JENNER. Above the temple. What would you say he weighed?
Mr. THORNLEY. I would say he weighed about 140 pounds, maybe 130.
Mr. JENNER. How tall was he?
Mr. THORNLEY. I would say he was about five-five maybe. I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. How tall are you?
Mr. THORNLEY. I am five-ten.
Mr. JENNER. Was he shorter than you?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What habits did he have with respect to his person--was he
neat, clean?
Mr. THORNLEY. Extremely sloppy.
Mr. JENNER. Extremely sloppy?
Mr. THORNLEY. He was. This I think might not have been true of him in
civilian life.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know one way or the other?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; but I do have reason to believe that it wasn't true
of him in civilian life because it fitted into a general personality
pattern of his: to do whatever was not wanted of him, a recalcitrant
trend in his personality.
Mr. JENNER. You think it was deliberate?
Mr. THORNLEY. I think it tended to be deliberate; yes. It was a gesture
of rebellion on his part.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever discuss that matter with him, as dress.
Mr. THORNLEY. No.
Mr. JENNER. The attitude of rebellion?
Mr. THORNLEY. No; because this attitude of rebellion was a fairly
common thing in the service.
Mr. JENNER. On the part of others as well as Oswald?
Mr. THORNLEY. As well as Oswald. Oswald did carry it to--was the most
extreme example I can think of stateside. However, overseas, in the
outfit he had been in before, as I discovered later, this was quite
common.
Mr. JENNER. How much later?
Mr. THORNLEY. Three months--well, immediately, as soon as I left, as
soon as I got overseas. I walked in to the barracks on the Fourth
of July over there and saw beer bottles spread all over, and some
character sitting in the back of the barracks with a broken beer bottle
cutting his arm, for what reason I don't remember. They found beer cans
in a trash can in MACS 9 and there was a drastic investigation; so
there is an indication of a difference between stateside and overseas.
Oswald was typical, very typical of the outfit he had just left
overseas.
Mr. JENNER. So that it is your impression, you would say. I gather,
that as of that particular time when you first knew him that he was
still carrying some of his experience personal attentionwise from what
he had experienced overseas?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And he was still following the habits he had acquired
overseas?
Mr. THORNLEY. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you think it went beyond that, this unkemptness or this
sloppiness?
Mr. THORNLEY. It did go beyond that, because he seemed to be a person
who would go out of his way to get into trouble, get some officer or
staff sergeant mad at him. He would make wise remarks. He had a general
bitter attitude toward the Corps. He used to pull his hat down over his
eyes so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him and go walking
around very Beetle Bailey style.
Mr. JENNER. What is Beetle Bailey?
Mr. THORNLEY. Beetle Bailey is a comic strip character who walks around
with his hat over his eyes very much as Oswald did.
Mr. JENNER. You want to keep in mind, Mr. Thornley, I am an old man and
there are things I don't pick up or get hep to.
Mr. THORNLEY. This is nothing recent. This is a comic strip that has
been around quite a few years now.
Mr. JENNER. You go on and tell us about his personality.
Mr. THORNLEY. All right.
Mr. JENNER. Including any physical characteristics or habits.
Mr. THORNLEY. I think I have covered all physical characteristics. His
shoes were always unshined. As I mentioned, he walked around with the
bill of his cap down over his eyes and you got the impression that he
was doing this so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him.
Mr. JENNER. And he was doing that so that he would not be assigned
additional work or----
Mr. THORNLEY. No; he was just doing that--this was just an attempt, I
think, on his part, to blot out the military so he wouldn't have to
look at it; he wouldn't have to think about it. In fact, I think he
made a comment to that effect at one time; that when he had his bill of
his cap over his eyes so he would see as little as possible, because he
didn't like what he had to look at.
He had, as I remember, he had a sense of humor, and I can only think of
a couple of examples of it. I have only been able to think of a couple
of examples of it over the past few months, but I have a strong general
impression in my mind that there were more examples that I just don't
remember.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you draw on your recollection as best you can and
you just keep telling us now in your own words and I will try to not
interrupt you too much.
Mr. THORNLEY. All right. One example was, that I remember--of course,
it was well known in the outfit that, or popularly believed that Oswald
had Communist sympathies----
Mr. JENNER. You didn't share that view?
Mr. THORNLEY. Not as much as some did, and while this was popularly
believed, I mention this as kind of a framework for the significance of
Oswald's comment: Master Sergeant Spar, our section chief, jumped up
on the fender one day and said, "All right, everybody gather around,"
and Oswald said in a very thick Russian accent, "Ah ha, collective farm
lecture," in a very delighted tone.
This brought him laughs at the time, and he had gotten me to read
"1984," as I mentioned earlier, and this was one of his favorites----
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what "1984" was.
Mr. THORNLEY. This was a book about--it is a projection into the
future, supposed to take place in 1984 in England under a complete
police state. It is, I would say, an anti-utopian novel, by George
Orwell, a criticism of English socialism and what it might lead
to, based upon Orwell's experiences with communism and nazism, his
observations about a society in which a mythical leader called Big
Brother dominates everybody's life. Where there are television cameras
on every individual at all times watching his every act, where sex is
practically outlawed, where the world is perpetually at war, three big
police states constantly at war with one another, and where thought
police keep every, all of the citizens in line. Oswald would often
compare the Marine Corps with the system of government outlined in
"1984."