Mr. PIC. No, sir; I did not see him. I seen my mother.
Mr. JENNER. I see. All right; go ahead.
Mr. PIC. I returned from Portsmouth, Va., in April 1954, sir; and took
up residency at 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y. We returned
really to 325 East 92d Street, stayed there a matter of a couple of
days until I found us a place to live in Staten Island and then my
wife and I moved over to Staten Island leaving my mother-in-law in
the apartment, being I felt because my wife had six brothers and
sisters that they could worry about her. I didn't see that it was my
responsibility much longer. My wife was the youngest child, and we
lived there almost 2 years.
I was then assigned to the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter _Halfmoon_, which
is a weather vessel, and this is where I am in and out for 6-, 7-week
periods at a time. It was during this time that she wrote me at the
base, my mother, and informed me that they were back in New Orleans,
and you have the letters referring to this, sir.
It was either sometime in the fall of 1955 or the winter of 1956 that
my mother called me from New Orleans.
Mr. JENNER. By telephone?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; and said she wanted to visit again.
Mr. JENNER. You were then in New York?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; well, Lee was still with her, and my wife frowned
upon this, and being that we did have a one-bedroom apartment, and we
did have two children at this time there was no way at all we could
accommodate two of them. She was very upset about this that I wouldn't
have her up. There was nothing I could do about it, though. I knew if
she came up they were coming up to stay, and I didn't want a repeat
of what we had. So in February 1956, I joined the Air Force and was
stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base in New York which is about 30, 40
miles east of New York City. In October 1956, Lee joined the Marine
Corps.
Mr. JENNER. How did that come to your attention?
Mr. PIC. My mother informed me of this fact.
Mr. JENNER. By letter?
Mr. PIC. We were writing again. So, it was just a matter of
corresponding by mail up until the Christmas holidays of 1957 when my
mother--let me make sure that date is right--I am fairly certain, sir;
that it was the Christmas holidays of 1957 rather than the Christmas
holidays of 1958--that she visited us.
Mr. JENNER. She did come to New York?
Mr. PIC. Right. She come to--we had moved to 104 Avenue C East Meadow,
on Long Island. I had two children but we had a 3-bedroom apartment
which was part of base housing and we could accommodate her here.
She came from Fort Worth when she arrived. Somehow or another between
New Orleans and this visit she and Lee had gone back to Fort Worth.
Mr. JENNER. You were aware of the fact she had returned to Fort Worth?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you learned that through correspondence?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. With her.
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; her position at that time, so she told us, was that
she was a greeter for the city of Fort Worth. She would welcome people
to town and things like this.
Mr. JENNER. I think she was employed for a while in an organization
called Welcome Wagon. That is a national organization.
Mr. PIC. When she was employed is when she visited us. I think this was
Christmas of 1957, is that right?
Mr. ELY. I think that would be the same thing probably, Welcome Wagon
greets people.
Mr. PIC. Is this 1957 when she had that job?
Mr. JENNER. I am not sure of the date but it is true that during that,
when she returned to Fort Worth sometime along there she did have a
position of that character.
Mr. PIC. She stayed over the Christmas holidays, left approximately the
10th of January, sometime.
Mr. JENNER. Did you have conversations here about Lee during that time?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What did she say?
Mr. PIC. Lee was in the Marine Corps, Lee was very happy to be in the
Marine Corps, Lee was proud to be in the Marine Corps. Lee loved the
Marine Corps. He just liked it.
Mr. JENNER. I see. What had occurred to Robert in the meantime? This is
December of 1957. Was he still in the service?
Mr. PIC. No, sir; he was not, I don't believe. I think he had gotten
discharged and gotten married, was residing in Fort Worth with his
wife.
Mr. JENNER. He was discharged in the spring of 1956-1957, rather; and
stayed at Exchange Alley for a short while.
Mr. PIC. I don't know that.
Mr. JENNER. Then went to Fort Worth and your mother and your brother
Lee followed and your brother Lee attended high school for about 6 or 7
weeks in the fall of 1957 in Fort Worth, Arlington Heights High School,
and enlisted in October 1957, in the Marines.
Mr. PIC. Lee enlisted in 1956, I believe.
Mr. ELY. 1956.
Mr. JENNER. 1956 was it. Then your brother Robert was discharged,
mustered out in 1956?
Mr. PIC. That sounds about right. And stayed in Exchange Alley a short
time, didn't like it, went on to Fort Worth.
After she left in January of 1958 we continued to communicate by mail
and every now and then a phone call.
Then in August of 1958 I received my orders to Japan, and we left
Mitchel and departed cross country.
Mr. JENNER. You and your wife and children?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By what, automobile?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By this time you owned an automobile?
Mr. PIC. My second one.
Mr. JENNER. Second one?
Mr. PIC. I purchased my first one when I was stationed in Virginia. We
arrived in Fort Worth, approximately 28, 29 October 1958. I remember we
were in her house on Halloween night because I pulled the car up behind
and locked the gates so I would not have my hub caps stolen.
Mr. JENNER. Where did she reside then?
Mr. PIC. I think you ought to refresh my memory on that. It was a
little circle. Did she have an address with a little circle, some kind
of circle or something?
Mr. JENNER. Do you have that?
Mr. PIC. What she lived on described the street, it was a circle,
something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Her first house and apartment in New York was 325, that was
your apartment, 325 East 92. And then she moved over to 1455 Sheridan
Avenue in the Bronx, and then 825 East 179th Street in the Bronx. 3124
West Fifth Street, Fort Worth.
Mr. PIC. That isn't familiar.
Mr. JENNER. It is not familiar?
Mr. PIC. It could be it, though, I can probably find it on the map of
Fort Worth if we still have got it because I remember that place real
well. I was thrown out of there. Some people hold a grudge a long time.
Sir, that is probably it, West Fifth Street, because the location West
Fifth Street is probably about the same place.
Mr. JENNER. You said you were thrown out of there. I assume an incident
occurred?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir; I am getting to that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. PIC. While we were staying there, I was traveling cross country and
really didn't know where I was going or what time I would have to be
there. We were waiting for our port call to know when we would have to
be in San Francisco to catch our flight out of there, and so I had no
idea how long I would be in Fort Worth, and so I made a phone call from
there to Mitchel to try to find out, and didn't find out anything.
Then the Sunday that we were there--well, prior to this, when we
arrived there the same day my brother Robert came over to see us. He
was then working for a milk company, Borden's Milk Co., I believe. He
was giving my mother free milk, all the extras that he had and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. This is the first time you had seen your brother Robert, I
take it, since his visit to New York City, is that correct?
Mr. PIC. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. And that was a cordial reunion, was it?
Mr. PIC. Yes; it was.
Mr. JENNER. Was your mother working at that time?
Mr. PIC. She was working, sir, when we arrived there, at Cox, I
believe, Department Store at the candy counter, I believe it was Cox, I
know she was working at a candy counter.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. PIC. When we got there, my mother informed us she had no food in
the house so my wife and I went and bought a whole bunch of groceries
for our stay which we expected to do. I got in contact with some old
friends, and they invited me over for Sunday dinner the following
Sunday at their house, and being I was pressed for time I had another
Sunday dinner invitation at my brother Robert's house. My mother was
invited to this dinner.
Mr. JENNER. At your brother's?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. PIC. He then resided at 7313 Davenport Street, I believe. Well, it
seems that my mother declined her part of the invitation, and was quite
put out that my wife and I did not decline our part because she decided
that we should spend Sunday dinner eating with her. So, my wife and
I and two children drove off to my brother Robert's house to go eat.
After we were there for about a half hour, she called us up and told me
to come get our bags, that we would have to leave.
So, my wife and I, we left the kids at my brother Robert's because we
knew there would be a big scene with all the trimmings, and we went
back and we walked in, didn't say nothing, just packed up our bags and
she was yelling and screaming reminding us about the time we threw her
out of the apartment in New York and she was getting even with us for
this when we threw her and Lee out.
I then informed her that I wanted nothing more to do with her and that
every time she and my wife got together, that she had nothing but bad
things to say about her. And I let her know that our relationship ends
right then and there, and since that time, sir, I have not written her,
talked to her, anything.
Mr. JENNER. Or seen her.
Mr. PIC. Or have seen her, except in magazines and stuff. She has sent
me a bunch of junk in the mail. During this conversation when we was
getting thrown out, I reminded her that she made nothing but trouble
for us and especially my wife, she was always on my wife. And so I owed
her a few dollars for the phone call I had made, so I gave her $10 and
this seemed to satisfy, well, probably accomplished what she set out to
do, get some money off of me one way or the other. This I how I looked
at it. This didn't upset her, after we left, after I gave her $10. So,
we went to my brother Robert's, we ate, we stayed at their house until
Tuesday morning, and we left and then went to Japan, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's suspend for dinner.
Mr. PIC. Could I just add one thing, sir?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. PIC. While we were there, I was informed that Lee was in Japan.
Mr. JENNER. You were informed by your mother?
Mr. PIC. Yes, sir. And that we should see him when we get there.
Mr. JENNER. Were you advised as to where in Japan he was?
Mr. PIC. I was given his address, sir. After arriving there it was just
a matter of a week or so I received a letter from my mother which I
never acknowledged or maybe it was my brother, it was one of the two,
saying Lee was traveling across the United States at the same time I
was. He had left Japan before I arrived in Japan. I arrived in Japan 10
November 1958 and I don't know what date he left, sir. I never got to
see him in Japan. This would probably be a good time to suspend.
Mr. JENNER. Before we do that, did you have any conversation with your
brother about, your brother Robert about your brother Lee while you
were there in 1958?
Mr. PIC. I think I may have let him know how Lee acted toward me. He
didn't want nothing to do with me. The only things I heard about Lee
was that he was in the Marine Corps and he liked it.
Mr. JENNER. Did your brother Robert say anything about having been in
New Orleans before he came to Fort Worth?
Mr. PIC. He told me about a trip that he made to pick them up or
something down there. They called him up one time and he drove down and
got them and drove back all in the same trip.
Mr. JENNER. That must have been the time when they left New Orleans and
came to Fort Worth.
Mr. PIC. Sir, in the testimony of Marilyn Murret, I am going to make a
statement.
Mr. JENNER. What testimony of Marilyn Murret?
Mr. PIC. This is what I am going to tell you that prior to his
defection she knew he was in Europe and everywhere that I read in here,
no one knew he was going to Europe. She informed me before anyone knew
he defected that he was in Europe.
Mr. JENNER. Who informed you?
Mr. PIC. Marilyn Murret in Japan. She was in Japan. She visited with me.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I will go into that right after dinner.
Mr. PIC. All right, sir.
Mr. JENNER. We will suspend until 7:30.
(Whereupon, at 6:30 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)