Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these bullets very briefly?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. They are cartridges. There are four
cartridges. Two are Western .38 Special with copper-coated lead bullets
loaded into these cartridges. The other two are Remington-Peters .38
Special cartridges, which are loaded with lead bullets.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in the other exhibit?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of one Western .38
Special cartridge, which is also loaded with a copper-coated lead
bullet, and the other cartridge is a Remington-Peters .38 Special
cartridge, which is loaded with a lead bullet.
Mr. EISENBERG. I now hand you another group of bullets, marked Q-82
through Q-86.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Eisenberg, would you state for the record at this
time what those two bullets are? They are introduced another time.
Mr. EISENBERG. Yes; all the bullets which Mr. Cunningham examined were
found either in the pocket or the--pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald--or the
cylinder of his revolver at the time of his arrest on November 22.
I now hand you another group of bullets marked Q-82 through Q-86, and
with certain other markings on them.
Are you familiar with these bullets? And may I state for the record
that the bullets I have just handed Mr. Cunningham derive from the same
source.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am familiar with these bullets.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe these briefly?
Before I do that--Mr. Chairman, may I have these bullets admitted into
evidence as a group, as Exhibit 592?
The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.
(The articles referred to were marked Commission Exhibit No. 592, and
received in evidence.)
The CHAIRMAN. At this time, I shall have to leave to attend a session
of the Supreme Court.
Commissioner Ford, would you preside?
And, during the morning, Commissioner Dulles will be here, I am told,
and if you leave, leave him in charge, will you, please?
Representative FORD. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
Mr. Cunningham, thank you for your assistance. Glad to have seen you.
(At this point, Mr. Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the bullets in Exhibit 592, Mr.
Cunningham?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; all five of them are Western .38 Special
cartridges, which are loaded with copper-coated lead bullets.
Mr. EISENBERG. So that of a total of--you have examined a total of 11
bullets, and three are Remington-Peter--well, at any rate, of the 11
they are divided 3 and 8 into Remington-Peter and Western .38 Special
bullets?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, I hand you four cartridge cases in
an envelope marked Q-74, Q-75, Q-76, and Q-77. And I ask you whether
you are familiar with these cartridge cases.
Mr. Cunningham, before going on to the cartridge cases I just handed
you, could you explain when you received the bullets which are
comprised in the last three exhibits, and who you received them from,
and how they were presented to you?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. Commission Exhibit 145 consists of the two
cartridges that we received--the FBI received from the U.S. Secret
Service. We received them on December 3, 1963.
That is correct. They were personally delivered to the laboratory by
Special Agent Orrin Bartlett of the FBI, who is a liaison agent with
the Secret Service. And he delivered them to us on December 3, 1963.
Mr. EISENBERG. And did he identify them in any way to you when he
delivered them? Did he describe their origin to you?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; he did not describe them to us.
Mr. EISENBERG. All right. Could you go on to the next group of five
cartridges?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. I don't know the exhibit number.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is Exhibit 592.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 592 was received in the FBI
Laboratory from the Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us who you received them from?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Dallas office of the FBI. I have no first-hand
knowledge. I know that they were received from the Dallas Police
Department--but that was due to what I have read in an FBI
investigative report. The laboratory received them from the Dallas
office on November 30.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you go on to the last group of four bullets?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518 was also received from the
Dallas office of the FBI on November 30, 1963.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, for the record, I would like to state that to the
best of my knowledge the group of two and the group of four bullets,
which together total six, were taken by the Dallas Police from the
chamber of the revolver which is Exhibit 143, after the apprehension
of Lee Harvey Oswald. They were then split into two groups of two and
four as we have them now, two bullets being given to the Secret Service
and eventually, as Mr. Cunningham relates, to the FBI, and four bullets
going to the Dallas office of the FBI.
The group of five bullets was taken from a pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald,
following his apprehension on November 22 and was kept separated from
the remaining bullets, I believe, merely because they had been taken
from a different source--that is, the pocket rather than the chamber of
the revolver.
Mr. Cunningham, returning to Exhibit 145, do either of the two
cartridges in Exhibit 145 bear any signs of having suffered an impact
from the firing pin in the revolver, Exhibit 143?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An examination of these two cartridges, the primers of
these two cartridges, reveals no marks that could be associated with
the firing pin in Commission Exhibit 143, or any other weapon.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are there any nicks on either of those cartridges?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. There is a small nick, an indentation, up near the
edge of the primer in the Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridge.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could this nick have been caused by the firing pin?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There was no indication, from an examination, that that
nick had been so caused by a firing pin.
First of all, it is in the wrong position, it is not in the center of
the primer. And, also, a microscopic examination of that nick gave no
indication that it was made by a firing pin.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you microscopically examine the bases of both
cartridge cases?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, turning to Exhibit 518, consisting of four
bullets, which, as I mentioned earlier, were, like the two bullets in
Exhibit 145, taken from the chamber of the revolver, did you find any
nicks in any of these bullets, the bases of any of these bullets?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Just by handling, there are bound to be small
microscopic scratches of one kind or other. But there was no indication
that any of the primers in these four cartridges had been struck by a
firing pin.
Mr. EISENBERG. Were these also examined microscopically?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They were, individually.
Mr. EISENBERG. When you say there was no indication that they were
struck by a firing pin, in your opinion, based on the construction of
this weapon, if the firing pin had been drawn back to any extent and
then released, would it have left a mark on one of the cartridges?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is--yes and no. It depends on how far it is drawn
back. As soon as the hammer internally clears the rebound block, the
hammer is then able to go forward and it probably would have fired.
But up to that point, the hammer is held back from striking, it
cannot--under normal conditions--be made to fire a cartridge.
However, it has been found with this particular weapon, a drop of
approximately 3 feet on the hammer would fire a cartridge in the
chamber.
Representative FORD. How far back does the hammer have to be drawn in
order to fire?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That can be shown very easily by holding the cylinder.
By holding the cylinder, that distance can be seen, which is
approximately 3/8 to 1/2 inch.
Mr. EISENBERG. The witness is demonstrating.
The hammer, as he says, is going back about 3/8 of an inch.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once you allow the cylinder to rotate, then the rebound
block is pushed out of the way, as you can see. Then you can cock the
weapon.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate for us the sound which would be
heard if you held the cylinder, pulled back, and then released the
trigger?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. A snapping sound can definitely be heard.
Mr. EISENBERG. There is a very audible snapping sound. Would that
snap--that amount of snap--leave a mark on the base of the cartridge
case against which the firing pin----
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Under these conditions it could not leave a mark,
because the rebound block is in the way.
Mr. EISENBERG. When you say rebound block, this is a block between the
firing pin and the base of the cartridge case?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; it is the block that is forcing the trigger
to go forward after it is pulled back. You see, your trigger will snap
back. It is done by a spring in the block.
Mr. EISENBERG. To put it differently, this block would prevent the
firing pin from emerging from its hole?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. That is exactly it.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, could the firing pin emerge from its hole without
having traveled a considerable distance back? That is, to say, at what
point does the rebound block release the hammer?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. At approximately--well, right there you can hear it.
That is a good half inch.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you pull it back and then release that half an
inch to disengage the rebound block?
(The witness did so.)
Mr. EISENBERG. If the firing pin hit the cartridge with that amount of
force, do you believe the cartridge would be fired?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any possibility it would not be fired? Any
substantial possibility?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It would still make a mark.
Mr. EISENBERG. It would make a mark, at any rate?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Let me clarify it. It still will not fire because the
block will go forward.
Mr. EISENBERG. What will go forward?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In other words, the trigger has to be pulled through
the whole cycle in a Smith----