The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.
Mr. Cunningham, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony
of yourself and Mr. Joseph Nicol. We understand that you are a firearms
expert with the FBI, and Mr. Nicol is a firearms expert with the Bureau
of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the Department of
Public Safety of the State of Illinois.
You have both been asked to provide technical information to assist the
Commission in its work.
Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.
You may proceed with the examination.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, would you state your name and position?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Cortlandt Cunningham. I am a Special Agent of the FBI.
Mr. EISENBERG. And in what branch of the FBI do you work?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am assigned to the Firearms Identification Unit of
the FBI Laboratory, here in Washington, D.C.
Mr. EISENBERG. What is your education?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have a Bachelor of Science degree from Northwestern
University, and a Bachelor of Laws degree from the University of Miami.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly state your qualifications in the field
of firearms identification?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Upon entering the FBI Laboratory, I underwent an
extensive training course under the supervision of experienced
examiners in the field of firearms identification, which consisted of
making thousands of examinations and comparisons of bullets, cartridge
cases, and weapons.
I have also done reading in the subject. I have done some research and
conducted many experiments in the field. And, of course, I have made
thousands of examinations on my own and testified numerous times in
State and Federal courts.
Mr. EISENBERG. How many years have you been in the Laboratory, Mr.
Cunningham?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Over 5 years, and I have been in the Bureau over 10
years.
The CHAIRMAN. The witness is qualified.
Mr. EISENBERG. To begin with, Mr. Cunningham, we had some testimony
yesterday on the bullet which is thought to have been fired at General
Walker. That is Commission Exhibit No. 573. Are you familiar with this
bullet, Mr. Cunningham?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you supply the weight of that bullet, which was
going to be supplied to us?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I can. This bullet weighed 148.25 grains.
Mr. EISENBERG. Does that show some weight loss, if the bullet was from
a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does. Those bullets weigh 161 grains, but there is a
great deal of mutilation on this bullet.
Mr. EISENBERG. And could you tell us when you received this bullet in
your laboratory, Mr. Cunningham?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. It was received from the Dallas office of the FBI
on December 4, 1963.
Mr. EISENBERG. And when was it examined?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It was examined that date.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I now hand you Commission Exhibit No.
143, and I ask you whether you are familiar with this exhibit, which,
for the record, is a revolver.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If you will excuse me, I won't open the cylinder. I
have checked the cylinder, and there are expended or fired cartridge
cases in the cylinder.
Mr. EISENBERG. Which you have placed in it for a special demonstration?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I fired it, yes, prior to my testimony here today. I
have seen this weapon before.
Mr. EISENBERG. Again for the record, this is the weapon which is
believed to have been used in the murder of Officer Tippit. Can you
describe this weapon in terms of name, caliber and so forth?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Do you want me to describe it as it is today?
Mr. EISENBERG. As it is today.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. As it is today, it is a .38 Special Smith and Wesson,
Victory Model revolver.
Mr. EISENBERG. And was it always a .38 Special?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it was not. Originally this weapon was known as
a .38-200 British Service revolver. In this country the weapon would
be known as a .38 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, Victory Model.
However, the British gave the designation .38-200 to it.
Mr. EISENBERG. Was this revolver made in the United States?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It was.
Mr. EISENBERG. And has it been in England subsequent to that?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.
Mr. EISENBERG. And how can you tell that, Mr. Cunningham?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Well, first of all, all weapons going into England have
to be proofed. They are proofed at, usually, the Birmingham proofhouse.
Representative FORD. What does that mean?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are tested for whether they will withstand a
certain charge. They place in the cylinders overloaded cartridges, and
they are fired, in the cylinder, as this one has been. It has been
proofed to 3-1/2 tons. Each chamber in the cylinder has been proofed.
You can tell that, because each chamber has been stamped with the
Birmingham proofmark, indicating that each chamber in the cylinder has
been proofed.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you explain to us the difference
between a .38 S&W and a .38 Special?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are completely different cartridges. One cartridge
is a .38 Special, and the other cartridge is a .38 S&W, or actually
written out it would be Smith and Wesson. It was developed for their
weapons, and it 1s quite an old cartridge, and it is known--usually as
appears on a box of ammunition--as merely a .38 S&W. However, there are
many differences in the cartridges.
Mr. EISENBERG. Have you brought two--an example of each type of
cartridge with you?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I have. First of all, this is actually a Western .38
S&W cartridge. You will see the head stamping on the base of this
cartridge signifies it to be a .38 S&W.
Mr. EISENBERG. Before you go any further--Mr. Chairman, may I have this
marked as an exhibit--this specimen?
I am holding a cartridge marked Western .38 S&W, and it is submitted as
Commission Exhibit 587.
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 587, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If you would care to see one broken down, I have one
with me. That is the same cartridge where the bullet has been pulled
and the powder has been dumped out.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is also a .38 S&W cartridge, but it has been
disassembled into a bullet and a cartridge case?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. The bullet has been pulled out of the
cartridge case and the powder removed.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this admitted as an exhibit?
The CHAIRMAN. It may be. What is the number?
Mr. EISENBERG. That will be 588.
The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted as Commission Exhibit 588.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 588, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This particular cartridge, which is one complete
cartridge, is a Remington-Peters .38 S&W. These two components actually
are of the same cartridge. All I have done is pull the bullet, and it
is also a Remington-Peters .38 S&W.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is the same cartridge as Exhibits 588 and 587?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. The only difference is that they are
different brands. They were made by two different manufacturers.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you show that to the Chairman for his examination?
The CHAIRMAN. These appear to be lead bullets.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. The others appeared to be jacketed.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. They are not, sir. It is known as gilding metal. They
are copper-coated lead bullets. Actually, it is an alloy--it is not
pure copper. They have been flash coated, for sales appeal, more than
anything else.
Mr. EISENBERG. Does that coating serve to prevent distortion to any
measurable extent when the bullet has penetrated a body?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it would not, to any appreciable amount. It is such
a thin coat, as you can see. Later on I will show you the ones that
have been fired, and also the bullets removed from Officer Tippit's
body. You can see the coating comes off--it flakes off--it is very thin.
Mr. EISENBERG. So that Exhibits 587 and 588 are substantially similar
to the R-P cartridge you have just been discussing?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. They are both loaded to the same specifications,
even though there are two manufacturers. All commercially made
ammunition in this country is loaded to a specific muzzle velocity.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, may I have this R-P cartridge which Mr.
Cunningham has been discussing admitted into evidence as Commission
Exhibit 589?
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 589, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. You have been showing us a .38 S&W, Mr. Cunningham?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have an example of a .38 Special?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do. The first one is a Western .38 Special
copper-coated lead bullet of Western manufacture, a .38 Special. The
other components I have here are components of the same cartridge from
which the bullet has been pulled.
Mr. EISENBERG. May I have the cartridge case, bullet, and cartridge
admitted into evidence as 590?
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 590, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, could you describe to us briefly
the difference----
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Do you want the Remington-Peters?
Mr. EISENBERG. You are holding in your hand a Remington-Peters
disassembled and assembled .38 Special?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would you hand that to the Chief Justice? May this be
admitted into evidence as Exhibit 591?
The CHAIRMAN. It may be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 591, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. This consists of an assembled R-P .38 Special and a
disassembled R-P .38 Special.
Again, I notice, Mr. Cunningham, that the R-P bullet has a lead-colored
look, whereas Exhibit 590 had a copper-colored look.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The Western coating is known by the trade
name "Lubaloy." It is a trade name of the Western Cartridge Co., and
it is nothing more than a gilding metal--actually, it is just a flash
coating on the outside of the bullet. There is some advantage, a very
small advantage, as to leading. But it is mostly for sales appeal,
because with Winchester bullets, some do and some don't have the
coating. Most of Winchesters which is the same bullet, have not been
copper coated--that they are selling today.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain the difference in terms of
dimensions and contour, weight, and so forth, between the .38 Special
bullets which you have just shown us and the .38 S&W bullets which you
have shown to us?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. The complete .38 Special cartridges,
both brands, they are approximately the same--they are made to
specifications, and they are within--just 1/1000th difference between
the two of them. They are very close. In some cases, there is a slight
difference, but generally they are the same size.
The .38 Special cartridges are a little over 1-1/2 inches in length.
The .38 S&W cartridges are approximately 1.2 inches in length. In other
words, there is about 4/10ths of an inch difference in their length.
The bullets of the .38 Special weigh 158 grains--both brands.
The bullets in the .38 S&W cartridges--there is one grain
difference--Western Lubaloy bullets weigh 145 grains, and Remington's
bullets weigh 146 grains, which is very close, when you figure there
are 7,000 grains to the pound.
The length of the bullets themselves--the .38 Special bullets are
approximately .72 plus inch. The .38 S&W bullets are approximately
.6 plus inch. The lengths of the cartridge cases are also different.
A .38 Special is approximately 1.15 inches for both brands. The .38
S&W cartridge cases are approximately .77 inch. And there you have
approximately a quarter of an inch difference between the lengths of
the cartridge cases.
The diameters of the bullets--the .38 Special bullets, at the
portion of the bullet where the case is crimped into the bullet are
approximately .357".
Mr. EISENBERG. That is the groove around the base of the bullet, also
known as the cannelure?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it is just above the two grooves, which are known
as cannelures, where the bullet is crimped. It is known as the crimp
ring. It is nothing more than where the case has been crimped in.
Mr. EISENBERG. I have pulled out the bullet from Exhibit 591, and there
is a little groove running above the second groove from the top--from
the bottom, the base, of the bullet.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That would be your crimping groove. Up at approximately
that area, both .38 Specials are approximately .357". However, the
bases of the .38 Specials, both brands, are about .350".
In other words, there is about 7/1000ths difference between the base
and where they are crimped, and both brands of .38 Specials seem to
run--slightly undersized at the base.
On the .38 Special the diameter of the bullets where they are crimped
is .357". The .38 S&W Remington-Peters bullets run about .360", or
just slightly less, which is about 3/1000ths larger. Their bases, both
brands, run about .356". In other words, they run about 6/1000ths
larger at the base--even though the bullets are shorter overall in the
.38 S&W.
Mr. EISENBERG. To summarize that, in terms of the diameter, do I
understand that the .38 Special and the .38 S&W have a similar diameter
as you approach the nose of the bullet, but that the .38 has a somewhat
larger diameter at the base than the .38 Special?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. .38 S&W.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, why would the gun be rechambered from the original
chamber, which was designed for the .38 S&W, to the chamber as it
stands now, which you tell us is designed for the .38 Special?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this country, the .38 S&W is not a popular cartridge
at the present time. In years gone by, many, many, many weapons have
been made for that particular cartridge. But they are usually the
top-break, the cheaper type of weapon. The .38 Special cartridge is a
better cartridge. There is a higher velocity and everything about the
cartridge is better than the .38 S&W, ballistically.
The .38 Special has become popular in this country for revolvers. And
the reason it was chambered in .38 S&W originally is because in England
and on the Continent it is a popular cartridge. The .38 S&W in England
is the .38-200. They loaded a 200-grain bullet into the same cartridge
case, and it was the standard British Army load for this particular
weapon and others. Why they took that particular cartridge, I do not
know.
Mr. EISENBERG. Was the gun rebarreled as well as rechambered?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, it was not. The barrel of this weapon has been cut
off approximately 2-3/4 inches. The original barrel was 5 inches for
this model.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would the failure to rebarrel affect the accuracy of the
weapon?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It should slightly, if you are firing .38 Special
bullets, because they are slightly undersized in a .38 S&W barrel. On
the average, .38 S&W barrels are approximately 4/1000ths larger than
the normal .38 Special barrel. In this particular weapon, that holds
true.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would it affect accuracy at close range?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. None whatsoever. And there, again, the shortening of
the barrel would affect the accuracy more than the use of .38 Special,
due to the fact that your sight radius has been cut down.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is to say, when you shorten the barrel, the length
between the front and the back sights is shorter, therefore giving more
room for error?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. In other words, the movement of the front
sight will cause more of a discrepancy at the target at longer ranges,
due to the shorter sight radius.
Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any functional reason for cutting the barrel
down to its present short size?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Sales appeal, I would say, is the main reason. Also,
concealment.
Mr. EISENBERG. In your experience, is a short barrel, cut-down barrel
weapon like this usually purchased for legitimate purposes by other
than police officers?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Possibly a collector. Among target shooters, it is not
a popular weapon, due to the short sight radius. Revolvers with 6-inch
barrels are very accurate weapons. A target shooter would not use a
weapon of the short barrel type. Therefore, it is not a very popular
weapon for sportsmen.
Mr. EISENBERG. Does the cutting off of the barrel increase the
possibility of concealment?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It does, because it makes it handier. I carried, when I
was in the field 5 years--I carried my personally owned firearm, which
had a 2-inch barrel, due to the fact that for concealment you could not
see it when I wore a suit, and it was more discreet in the type of work
I was doing.
The CHAIRMAN. Can both kinds of cartridges be used interchangeably in
this gun?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In this particular gun, yes sir. It makes no difference.
The CHAIRMAN. Either an S&W or S&W Special?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; the chambers of this particular cylinder have
been bored out, it appears from the very rough marks, to accommodate
the forward portion of a .38 Special cartridge. Also, when this barrel
was made--or the cylinder was made--the chambers had a shoulder or lip
that the .38 S&W cartridge case would fit up against. The bullet would
go forward farther, but the cartridge case would fit up against this
shoulder at the neck.
And in order to chamber a .38 Special, that forward portion had to
be bored out slightly, several thousandths to accommodate the longer
cartridge, which, by the way, is a very common thing on these surplus
weapons. Practically all of them are being rechambered, due to the
popularity of the .38 Special cartridge.
The CHAIRMAN. I see.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, this weapon--was this weapon sold into
the United States after it had been used in England?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. How much sign of use does it show?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has definitely been used, there is no doubt.
However, the cylinder is quite tight, and I would say that this weapon
is in good operating condition.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, since it was sold used, are you unable to attribute
any amount of use to the last user?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right, you would not be able to tell.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, could you explain briefly the manner
in which this revolver is operated, paying particular attention to
extraction and loading and reloading?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. First of all, the weapon has a frame into
which a barrel has been screwed and a cylinder which is hinged on a
crane is also fitted into the frame. There is a cylinder release on the
left-hand side of this weapon which enables one to push the cylinder to
the left.
The cylinder has six chambers--in other words, it is a six-shot weapon.
There is an extractor rod and an extractor in the rear portion of the
cylinder. When you press on the extractor rod, either loaded cartridges
or fired cartridge cases may be extracted from the cylinder so that it
may be reloaded again.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, in the operation of this weapon,
the cylinder takes six bullets--is that correct?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.
Mr. EISENBERG. In the operation of this weapon, when six bullets have
been loaded into the cylinder, is any action needed for firing except
six consecutive trigger pulls?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct. You can fire this weapon either single
or double action.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, can you explain the meaning of that?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes. Double action is accomplished by pulling the
trigger. In other words, you just pull the trigger each time and you
can fire this weapon six times before reloading. This weapon can also
be cocked, which puts the sear on the step of the hammer and reduces
the trigger pull, and may be fired that way. This is known as single
action.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a person using the gun and having it fully
loaded with six bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this
ejector-extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well
as the empty cartridge cases?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. The unfired
cartridge is heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand.
Then he can extract the cartridge cases and load in more.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate that?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If I may have a cartridge, please.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. Prior to my appearance here today, this
morning, I fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in
the cylinder.