The CHAIRMAN. I didn't get that last.
Mr. FRAZIER. It showed the effects of wear and corrosion.
Mr. EISENBERG. Is this weapon used when it is sold into the United
States?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is a surplus type of weapon.
Mr. EISENBERG. So that it is impossible to attribute any given amount
of wear to the last user?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is impossible.
Mr. EISENBERG. Have you measured the dimensions of this rifle
assembled, and disassembled?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you give us that information?
Mr. FRAZIER. The overall length is 40.2 inches. It weighs 8 pounds even.
Mr. McCLOY. With the scope?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, with the scope.
The CHAIRMAN. And the sling?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is with the sling, yes, sir. The sling weighs 4-3/4
ounces. The stock length is 34.8 inches, which is the wooden portion
from end to end with the butt plate attached. The barrel and action
from the muzzle to the rear of the tang, which is this portion at the
rearmost portion of the metal, is 28.9 inches. The barrel only is 21.18
inches.
Mr. EISENBERG. When you say, "this portion," Mr. Frazier, I don't think
that is coming down clear in the record. I wonder whether you could
rephrase that so as to describe the part of the barrel or part of the
stock to which you are pointing when you say "tang."
Mr. FRAZIER. The tang is the rear of the receiver of the weapon into
which the rear mounting screw is screwed to hold the rearmost part of
the metal action of the weapon into the wooden stock. From the end of
that portion to the muzzle of the weapon is 28.9 inches.
Mr. EISENBERG. And the length of the longest component when the rifle
is dissembled, Mr. Frazier?
Mr. FRAZIER. 34.8 inches, which is the length of the stock, the wooden
portion.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe to us the telescopic sight on the rifle
in terms of----
Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to the sight, can I ask a question?
Mr. EISENBERG. Surely.
Mr. McCLOY. How soon after the assassination did you examine this rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER. We received the rifle the following morning.
Mr. McCLOY. Received it in Washington?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. And you immediately made your examination of it then?
Mr. FRAZIER. We made an examination of it at that time, and kept it
temporarily in the laboratory.
It was then returned to the Dallas Police Department, returned again to
the laboratory--the second time on November 27th, and has been either
in the laboratory's possession or the Commission's possession since
then.
Mr. McCLOY. When you examined the rifle the first time, you said that
it showed signs of some corrosion and wear?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Was it what you would call pitted, were the lands in good
shape?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the lands and the grooves were worn, the corners
were worn, and the interior of the surface was roughened from corrosion
or wear.
Mr. McCLOY. Was there metal fouling in the barrel?
Mr. FRAZIER. I did not examine it for that.
Mr. McCLOY. Could you say roughly how many rounds you think had been
fired since it left the factory, with the condition of the barrel as
you found it?
Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I could not, because the number of rounds is not
an indication of the condition of the barrel, since if a barrel is
allowed to rust, one round will remove that rust and wear the barrel
to the same extent as 10 or 15 or 50 rounds just fired through a clean
barrel.
Mr. McCLOY. Thank you.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you describe the telescopic sight on the rifle?
Magnification, country of origin?
Mr. FRAZIER. It is a four-power telescopic sight employing crosshairs
in it as a sighting device, in the interior of the scope.
It is stamped "Optics Ordnance Incorporated, Hollywood California,"
and under that is the inscription "Made in Japan." It is a very
inexpensive Japanese telescopic sight.
The mount attached to it was also made in Japan.
Mr. EISENBERG. Have you removed the mount?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. EISENBERG. How many holes did you find drilled into the receiver?
Mr. FRAZIER. There are two holes in the receiver.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you form an opinion as to whether these were
original holes or whether new holes--new and larger holes had been
formed over the original holes?
Mr. FRAZIER. Normally, the receiver would have no holes at all, and
would have to be drilled and tapped for the screws. In the sight itself
there normally are three holes, two of which have been enlarged to
accommodate the two mounting screws presently holding the mount to the
rifle.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you think, based on your experience with types of
screws used in mounts, that these were the original screws and the
original holes for the screws?
Mr. FRAZIER. I could not say--I could not answer that specifically.
However, they appear to be the same type of screw as is present on the
rest of the mount--although they are somewhat larger in size than the
remaining hole which is present in the lower portion of the mount.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, I now hand you a rifle which is marked C-250. Are
you familiar with this rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe it briefly?
Mr. FRAZIER. It is an identical rifle physically to the rifle
Commission's Exhibit 139, in that it is the same caliber, 6.5-mm.
Mannlicher-Carcano Italian Military rifle, Model 91/38.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you attempt to determine by use of this rifle
whether the scope was mounted on Exhibit 139 by the firm which is
thought to have sold Exhibit 139?
Mr. FRAZIER. Would you repeat that, please?
Mr. EISENBERG. Yes.
Did you make an attempt to determine, by use of this C-250, whether the
firm which had sold Exhibit 139 had mounted the scope on Exhibit 139?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe how you made that attempt?
Mr. FRAZIER. We contacted the firm, Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago,
and asked them concerning this matter to provide us with a similar
rifle mounted in the way in which they normally mount scopes of this
type on these rifles, and forward the rifle to us for examination.
In this connection, we did inform them that the scope should be in
approximately this position on the frame of the weapon.
Mr. EISENBERG. Pardon me, Mr. Frazier. When you say "this position," so
that the record is clear could you----
Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes; in the position in which it now is, approximately
three-eighths of an inch to the rear of the receiver ring.