The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Frazier, the purpose of today's hearing is to take
the testimony of yourself and Mr. Ronald Simmons.
You are, we understand, a firearms expert with the FBI, and Mr. Simmons
is a firearms expert with the Weapons System Division at Fort Meade, Md.
You are asked to provide technical information to assist the Commission
in this work.
Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?
You solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. FRAZIER. I do.
The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated, please.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, will you give your name and position?
Mr. FRAZIER. Robert A. Frazier, Special Agent, Federal Bureau of
Investigation, assigned to the FBI Laboratory, Washington, D.C.
Mr. EISENBERG. And your education?
Mr. FRAZIER. I have a science degree which I received from the
University of Idaho.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you briefly state your training and experience in
the fields of firearms, firearms identification, and ballistics?
Mr. FRAZIER. Beginning in 1937, I was on the University of Idaho Rifle
Team, and the following year, 1938. In 1939 I enlisted in the National
Guard and for 2 years was on the National Guard Rifle Team firing both
small bore, or .22 caliber weapons, and the large bore, .30 caliber
weapons, both being of the bolt-action type weapons.
In 1939 and 1940 I instructed in firearms in the Army of the United
States, and acquired additional experience in firing of weapons,
training in firing at moving targets, additional training in firing
the .45 caliber automatic and machineguns. And to further my firearms,
practical firearms training, I received in 1942 a training course
offered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation after entering on duty
with that organization in--on June 9, 1941. That firearms training
course consisted of a basic training in handguns--that is, revolvers
and automatic pistols, training in autoloading rifles, training in
submachineguns, shotguns, and various other types of firearms.
One year later, approximately 1943, I received a specialized
administrative firearms course which qualified me for training other
agents in the field of law-enforcement type firearms.
Over the past 23 years, I have received the regular FBI firearms
training, which is a monthly retraining in firearms, and a periodic,
or every 4 years, detailed retraining in the basic FBI firearms--the
firearms training with the rifle, submachinegun, shotgun, revolver.
In the FBI, training includes firing both at stationary targets and
moving targets with both revolver and rifle and shotgun, and includes
firing at slow-fire targets--that is aimed fire for accuracy and rapid
fire to increase speed of firing.
Generally in the field of firearms identification, where I have
been assigned for 23 years, I received specialized training given
in the FBI Laboratory to train me for the position of firearms
identification specialist. In that field, we make examinations of
bullets and cartridge cases, firearms of various types, for the purpose
of identifying weapons as to their caliber, what they are, their
manufacturer, their physical characteristics, and determining the type
of ammunition which they shoot.
We examine ammunition of various types to identify it as to its
caliber, its specific designation, and the type or types of weapons in
which it can be fired, and we make comparisons of bullets to determine
whether or not they were fired from a particular weapon and make
comparisons of cartridge cases for the purpose of determining whether
or not they were fired in a particular weapon, or for determining
whether or not they had been loaded into or extracted from a particular
weapon.
That training course lasted for approximately 1 year. However, of
course, the experience in firearms is actually part of the training and
continues for the entire time in which you are engaged in examining
firearms.
Briefly, that is the summary of the firearms training I have had.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you estimate the number of examinations you have
made of firearms to identify the firearms?
Mr. FRAZIER. Thousands, I would say--firearms comparisons--I have made
in the neighborhood of 50,000 to 60,000.
Mr. McCLOY. Have you written any articles on this subject?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. I have prepared an article for the "FBI Law
Enforcement Bulletin" on firearms identification, which is published as
a reprint and provided to any organization or person interested in the
general field of firearms identification.
Mr. McCLOY. Have you read most of the literature on the subject?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I have.
Mr. McCLOY. Is there any classical book on this subject?
Mr. FRAZIER. There are a number of fairly good texts.
The basic one, originally published in 1936, is by Maj. Julian
S. Hatcher, who later, as a general, rewrote his book "Firearms
Investigation, Identification, and Evidence."
There are many other books published on the subject.
Mr. EISENBERG. May I ask that this person be accepted as a qualified
witness on firearms?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, indeed.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Frazier, I now hand you a rifle marked Commission
Exhibit 139.
Are you familiar with this weapon?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I am.
Mr. EISENBERG. And do you recognize it by serial number or by your mark?
Mr. FRAZIER. By serial number on the barrel, and by my initials which
appear on various parts of the weapon.
Mr. EISENBERG. For the record, this is the rifle which was found on the
sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on November 22.
Can you describe this rifle by name and caliber?
Mr. FRAZIER. It is a caliber 6.5 Italian military rifle, commonly
referred to in the United States as a 6.5 mm. Mannlicher-Carcano.
It is a bolt-action clip-fed military rifle.
Do you wish a general physical description of the weapon at this time?
Mr. EISENBERG. Well, no; not at this time.
Can you explain the American equivalent to the 6.5 mm. caliber?
Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same as .25 caliber. Such weapons in the
United States as the .25-20 Winchester, .25-35, the .250 Savage, and
the .257 Roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately
the same barrel diameter. So a decimal figure of .257 inch is the
equivalent of 6.5 mm.
Mr. EISENBERG. And can you explain what the caliber is a measure of?
Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber is the measure of the distance across the
raised portions or the lands in the barrel. The groove diameter, or
the spirals cut in the barrel to form the rifling, will be slightly
larger--in this case between 7/1000ths and 8/1000ths of an inch larger
than the actual bore diameter.
The caliber is normally determined by the bore diameter.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you explain how you made the identification of this
rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER. I identified it pictorially by comparing it with
pictures in reference books. And the actual identification was of the
manufacturer's name appearing on the barrel and serial number, which
indicated it was an Italian military rifle.
Mr. EISENBERG. Did you independently determine the caliber of the rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you tell us how you did that?
Mr. FRAZIER. The caliber and the caliber type may be confusing here.
The caliber, being the diameter of the barrel, is determined in two
ways--one, by comparing the barrel with 6.5mm. Mannlicher-Carcano
ammunition, which we also chambered in the weapon and determined that
it actually fit the weapon. And, secondly, we measured the width of
the barrel with, a micrometer. And in that connection, I would like to
point out that we made a sulphur cast of the muzzle of the weapon which
permitted us to use a micrometer to determine the land width and the
groove width in the barrel.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have that sulphur cast?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I do.
Mr. EISENBERG. And that was made by you or under your supervision?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it was made by me.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Chairman, I ask that this be admitted as Commission
Exhibit No. 540.
The CHAIRMAN. It will be admitted.
(The article referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 540, and
received in evidence.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Is there any reason that you can think of why this
Exhibit 139 might be thought to be a 7.35-or 7.65-caliber rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER. From outward appearances, it could be a 7.35-mm. rifle,
because, basically, that is what it is. But its mechanism has been
rebarreled with a 6.5-mm. barrel. Photographs of the weapons are
similar, unless you make a very particular study of the photographs of
the original model 38 Italian military rifle, which is 7.35 mm.
Early in the Second World War, however, the Italian Government barreled
many of these rifles with a 6.5-mm. barrel, since they had a quantity
of that ammunition on hand. I presume that would be the most logical
way of confusing this weapon with one of a larger caliber.
Mr. EISENBERG. And is the 6.5-caliber weapon distinguished from the
7.35-caliber weapon by name?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is; it is by the model number. The model 91/38
designates the 6.5-mm. rifle, whereas the model 38 designates the 7.35.
Mr. EISENBERG. Have you taken photographs of the various markings on
the rifle?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, I did.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have those with you?
Mr. FRAZIER. Actually, I think we forwarded those photographs to the
Commission.
Mr. EISENBERG. Are these the photographs that you took, or had taken?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Has the Federal Bureau of Investigation been supplied
with information concerning the meanings and significances of these
various markings?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we have.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you state the source of that information?
Mr. FRAZIER. This information came to us by mail as a result of an
inquiry of the Italian Armed Forces Intelligence Service, abbreviated
SIFAR, by letter dated March 26, 1964, through the FBI representative
in Rome, Italy.
This information is classified as secret by the Italian Government,
who have advised that the material may be released to the Commission.
However, they desire the retention of the information in a secret
category.
The CHAIRMAN. Is this essential to the proof?
If it is not, I think we would rather not have it, because the fewer
things we have to keep in secret, the better the situation is for us.
Mr. EISENBERG. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. EISENBERG. Back on the record.
Based on your experience with firearms, is the placement of a specific
serial number on a weapon generally confined to one weapon of a given
type?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is. Particularly--may I refer to foreign weapons
particularly?
The serial number consists of a series of numbers which normally will
be repeated. However, a prefix is placed before the number, which
actually must be part of the serial number, consisting of a letter.
Mr. EISENBERG. Have you been able to confirm that the serial number on
this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon?
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, it is.
Mr. EISENBERG. All right.
Now, without reference to any classified information, could you briefly
describe the markings shown on these photographs?
Mr. FRAZIER. The first photograph is an overall photograph of the rifle.
Mr. EISENBERG. Excuse me.
These photographs--when you say "first photograph"--these photographs
are marked No. 1, No. 2, et cetera, on the back.
Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, they are.
Photograph No. 1 is an overall photograph of the rifle.
Photograph No. 2 is made of the top of the barrel, showing the serial
number C2766.
Photograph No. 3 is also of the top of the rifle, showing a portion of
the inscription on the telescopic sight, and the figures 1940, which
is the manufacturer's date, the words "Made Italy" and a figure in the
form of a crown, under that the letters "R-E," and then a portion of
the word "Terni."