Dr. PERRY. I have failed to see one that was asked.
Representative FORD. In other words, you subsequently read or heard
what was allegedly said by you and by Dr. Clark and Dr. Carrico. Were
those reportings by the news media accurate or inaccurate as to what
you and others said?
Dr. PERRY. In general, they were inaccurate. There were some that were
fairly close, but I, as you will probably surmise, was pretty full
after both Friday and Sunday, and after the interviews again, following
the operation of which I was a member on Sunday, I left town, and I
did not read a lot of them, but of those which I saw I found none that
portrayed it exactly as it happened. Nor did I find any that reported
our statements exactly as they were given. They were frequently taken
out of context. They were frequently mixed up as to who said what or
identification as to which person was who.
Representative FORD. This interview took place on Sunday, the 24th, did
you say?
Dr. PERRY. No, there were several interviews, Mr. Ford. We had one in
the afternoon, Friday afternoon, and then I spent almost the entire
day Saturday in the administrative suite at the hospital answering
questions to people of the press, and some medical people of the
American Medical Association. And then, of course, Sunday, following
the operation on Oswald, I again attended the press conference since
I was the first in attendance with him. And, subsequently, there
was another conference on Monday conducted by the American Medical
Association, and a couple of more interviews with some people whom I
don't even recall.
Representative FORD. Would you say that these errors that were reported
were because of a lack of technical knowledge as to what you as a
physician were saying, or others were saying?
Dr. PERRY. Certainly that could be it in part, but it was not all.
Certainly a part of it was lack of attention. A question would be
asked and you would incompletely answer it and another question
would be asked and they had gotten what they wanted without really
understanding, and they would go on and it would go out of context.
For example, on the speculation on the ultimate source of bullets, I
obviously knew less about it than most people because I was in the
hospital at the time and didn't know the circumstances surrounding it
until it was over. I was much too busy and yet I was quoted as saying
that the bullet, there was probably one bullet, which struck and
deviated upward which came from the front, and what I had replied was
to a question, was it conceivable that this could have happened, and I
said yes, it is conceivable.
I have subsequently learned that to use a straight affirmative word
like "yes" is not good relations; that one should say it is conceivable
and not give a straight yes or no answer.
"It is conceivable" was dropped and the "yes" was used, and this was
happening over and over again. Of course, Dr. Shires, for example, who
was the professor and chairman of the department was identified in one
press release as chief resident.
Mr. DULLES. As what? I didn't get it.
Dr. PERRY. As chief resident. And myself, as his being my superior,
whereas Dr. Ronald Jones was chief resident of course, nothing could be
further from the truth in identifying Dr. Shires as chief resident. I
was identified as a resident surgeon in the Dallas paper. And I am not
impressed with the accuracy of the press reports.
Mr. McCLOY. I don't know whether you have covered this very well.
Let me ask you about the wound, the wound that you examined in the
President's neck.
You said that it would have been tolerable. Would his speech have been
impaired?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I don't think so. The injury was below the larynx,
and certainly barring the advent of any complication would have healed
without any difficulty.
Mr. McCLOY. He would have had a relatively normal life?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you, any other time, or other than the press conference
or any other period, say that you thought this was an exit wound?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. McCLOY. When the President was brought, when you first saw the
President, was he fully clothed, or did you cut the clothing away?
Dr. PERRY. Not at the time I saw him. Dr. Carrico and the nurses were
all in attendance, they had removed his coat and his shirt, which is
standard procedure, while we were proceeding about the examination, for
them to do so.
Mr. McCLOY. But you didn't actually remove his shirt?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you get the doctor's experience with regard to gunshot
wounds?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. McCLOY. You said something to the effect that, of knowing the
President had an adrenalin insufficiency, is that something you could
observe?
Dr. PERRY. This is common medical knowledge, sir, that he had had
in the past necessarily taken adrenalin steroids to support this
insufficiency. Dr. Carrico, at this moment of great stress, recalled
this, and requested this be given to him at that time, this is
extremely important because people who have adrenalin insufficiency are
unable to mobilize this hormone at the time of any great stress and it
may be fatal without support from exogenous drugs.
Mr. McCLOY. In other words, you had a general medical history of the
President before he was--common knowledge.
Dr. PERRY. No more so than anyone else, sir, except this would have
stuck with us, sir, since they were already in that line.
Mr. McCLOY. Did you discuss with any of the other doctors present, and
you named quite a number of them, as to whether this was an exit wound
or an entrance wound?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; we did at the time. But our discussion was
necessarily limited by the fact that none of us knew, someone asked me
now--you must remember that actually the only people who saw this wound
for sure were Dr. Carrico and myself, and some of the other doctors
were quoted as saying something about the wound which actually they
never said at all because they never saw it, because on their arrival
I had already made the incision through the wound, and despite what
the press releases may have said neither Dr. Carrico nor myself could
say whether it was an entrance or an exit wound from the nature of the
wound itself and Dr. McClelland was quoted, for example, as saying he
thought it was an exit wound, but that was not what he said at all
because he didn't even see it.
Mr. McCLOY. And it is a fact, is it not, that you did not see what we
now are supposed to believe was the entrance wound?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; we did not examine him. At that time, we attended
to the matters of expediency that were life-saving and the securing
of an adequate airway and the stanching of massive hemorrhage are
really the two medical emergencies; most everything else can wait, but
those must be attended to in a matter of minutes and consequently to
termination of treatment I had no morbid curiosity, my work was done,
and actually I was rather anxious to leave.
Mr. McCLOY. That is all.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. DULLES. I suggest, Mr. Specter, if you feel it is feasible, you
send to the doctor the accounts of his press conference or conferences.
And possibly, if you are willing, sir, you could send us a letter, send
to the Commission a letter, pointing out the various points in these
press conferences where you are inaccurately quoted, so we can have
that as a matter of record.
Is that feasible?
Dr. PERRY. That is, sir.
Would you prefer that each clipping be edited individually or a general
statement?
Mr. DULLES. Well, I think it would be better to have each clipping
dealt with separately. Obviously, if you have answered one point in one
clipping it won't be necessary to answer that point if it is repeated
in another clipping.
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. Just deal with the new points.
Dr. PERRY. I can and will do this.
Representative FORD. This would be where Dr. Perry is quoted himself,
or Dr. Carrico, or anyone else, they would only pass judgment on the
quotes concerning themselves.
Mr. DULLES. That would be correct.
Dr. PERRY. Yes, because some of the other circumstances in some of the
press releases which have come to my attention have not been entirely
accurate either, regarding sequence of events, and although I would not
have knowledge about those you would not want those added necessarily,
just any statement alluded to have been made by me.
Mr. DULLES. I think that would be better.
Don't you think so, Mr. Chairman?
Representative FORD. I think it would be the proper procedure.
Is this a monumental job, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. No, I think it is one which can be managed, Congressman
Ford. I might say we have done that with some of the clippings.
There was an article, as the deposition records will show when you have
an opportunity to review them, they have not been transcribed, as to an
article which appeared in La Expres, statements were attributed to Dr.
McClelland----
Mr. DULLES. Which paper?
Mr. SPECTER. A French paper, La Expres. And I questioned the doctors
quoted therein and developed for the record what was true and what was
false on the statements attributed to them, so we have undertaken that
in some circles but not as extensively as you suggest as to Dr. Perry,
because we have been trying diligently to get the tape records of the
television interviews, and we were unsuccessful. I discussed this with
Dr. Perry in Dallas last Wednesday, and he expressed an interest in
seeing them, and I told him we would make them available to him prior
to his appearance, before deposition or before the Commission, except
our efforts at CBS and NBC, ABC and everywhere including New York,
Dallas and other cities were to no avail.
The problem is they have not yet cataloged all of the footage which
they have, and I have been advised by the Secret Service, by Agent John
Howlett, that they have an excess of 200 hours of transcripts among all
of the events and they just have not cataloged them and could not make
them available.
Mr. DULLES. Do you intend to catalog them?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, they do, Mr. Dulles. They intend to do that
eventually in their normal process, and the Secret Service is trying
to expedite the news media to give us those, and it was our thought as
to the film clips, which would be the most direct or the recordings
which would be the most direct, to make comparisons between the reports
in the news media and what Dr. Perry said at that time, and the facts
which we have from the doctors through our depositions and transcript
today.
Representative FORD. Can you give us any time estimate when this
catalog and comparison might be made?
Mr. SPECTER. Only that they are working on it right now, have been for
some time, but it may be a matter of a couple of weeks until they can
turn it over.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McCLOY. Mr. Chairman, I have some doubt as to the present propriety
of making, of having the doctor make, comments in respect to a
particular group of newspaper articles. There have been comments, as
we all know, around the world, of great variety and great extent,
and it would be practically impossible, I suppose, to check all of
the accounts and in failing to check one would not wish to have it
suggested that others, the accuracy of others was being endorsed.
I would suggest that the staff make an examination of the files that we
have of the comments, together with such tape recordings as may have
been taken of the actual press conferences, and after that examination
is made we can then determine, perhaps a little more effectively, what
might be done to clarify this situation so that it would conform to
the actual statements that the doctor has made.
Mr. DULLES. Well, Mr. McCloy, it is quite satisfactory with me and I
agree with you we cannot run down all of the rumors in all of the press
and it is quite satisfactory with me to wait and see whether we have
adequate information to deal with this situation when we get in the
complete tapes of the various television, radio and other appearances,
so that we have a pretty complete record of what these two witnesses
and others have said on the points we have been discussing here today.
So I quite agree we will await this presentation to the doctors until
we have had a further chance to review this situation.
What I wanted to be sure was that when we are through with this we do
have in our files and records adequate information to deal with a great
many of the false rumors that have been spread on the basis of false
interpretation of these appearances before television, radio, and so
forth and so on.
Representative FORD. Is that all, Mr. Dulles, and Mr. McCloy?
Mr. DULLES. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask at this point, did you examine Governor Connally,
too?
Dr. PERRY. I was in the operating room briefly to see about his leg.
Mr. McCLOY. You haven't come to that point in your interrogation.
Mr. SPECTER. I did not.
Mr. McCLOY. I understood you to say you did examine Oswald.
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I operated on Oswald.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now described in general the press conferences
in which you participated immediately after the treatment which you
rendered to President Kennedy and following the treatment which you
assisted in rendering to Mr. Oswald?
Dr. PERRY. To the best of my knowledge.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you make an effort to leave the area of Dallas
immediately following the Monday after the weekend of the assassination
and the killing of Oswald in an effort to get away from the press
conferences?
Dr. PERRY. I left Monday afternoon approximately 3 o'clock.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?
Dr. PERRY. I went to McAllen, Tex., to the home of my mother-in-law.
Mr. SPECTER. And how far is that from Dallas?
Dr. PERRY. About 560 miles.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave instructions as to revealing the destination
that you set upon?
Dr. PERRY. No, only with Dr. Shires and my secretary.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you contacted by the press in McAllen?
Dr. PERRY. The following day.
Mr. SPECTER. And were your whereabouts given either by Dr. Shires or
your secretary?
Dr. PERRY. No, it was not.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you relate briefly the sequence that followed in
McAllen, Tex.
Dr. PERRY. The gentleman from UPI came out and knocked on the door,
and I was quite surprised, not having told anyone where I was going,
and I asked him if he would mind telling me how he found out how I was
there, and looking back at it I was kind of naive, I went to a relative
and told no one else. He had a wire in his hands which he showed me
indicating it had come from the Dallas office, naming the place where I
was, and the exact address, and who I was staying with.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he ask to take pictures of you?
Dr. PERRY. He did.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your response?
Dr. PERRY. This was denied.
Mr. SPECTER. And did he ask you questions?
Dr. PERRY. He did, essentially the same questions which I have
reiterated as to the emergency treatment that was undertaken. He did
not press the point as to the number of bullets or anything of that,
and I told him I had no knowledge of that. He only asked about the
emergency measures I had taken and I related them to him as I have to
you.
Mr. SPECTER. Subsequently, did an article appear about you in the
Saturday Evening Post?
Dr. PERRY. It did.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding
the appearance of that article as you felt them to be?
Dr. PERRY. We were contacted, not I directly but Dr. Shires, by the
medical editor of the Saturday Evening Post, this was all related to me
by Dr. Shires, in regard to a possible story. This was declined, since
Dr. Shires and those of us in the department felt that the news value
was gone and this was commercialism, and they told Dr. Shires, I am
told, that they would not print anything.
However, an article appearing under a New York Herald Tribune
uncopyrighted by-line apparently was subsequently acquired by them and
published.
Mr. SPECTER. And was that article accurate, inaccurate, or what was the
level of accuracy of the contents thereof?
Dr. PERRY. The level of accuracy was not very good at all. It was
overly dramatic, garish and in poor taste, and ethically damaging to me.
Mr. SPECTER. In what way was it ethically damaging to you, Dr. Perry?
Dr. PERRY. As you know, it is our policy that the physician's name
in the treatment of any patient be essentially kept quiet. There
are unusual circumstances surrounding this one, of course, and our
names were made public. But this mentions my name freely, published a
photograph that apparently was taken of me at the press conference and
had previously appeared in a newspaper, and a picture of the emergency
room, trauma room No. 1, and although most of the people in the medical
profession, I have subsequently been assured by the Society of Surgeons
and AMA, that they realize I had no part in it, which is obvious to
them because of the gross inaccuracies. Nonetheless it is harmful to
me as a member of the faculty of the medical school to have such an
article in print.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you have occasion to discuss your
observations with Comdr. James J. Humes of the Bethesda Naval Hospital?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. When did that conversation occur?
Dr. PERRY. My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously
in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on
Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly
when.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as
to whether it was on Friday or Saturday?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events
surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr.
Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think
it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the medium of your conversation?
Dr. PERRY. Over the telephone.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he identify himself to you as Dr. Humes of Bethesda?
Dr. PERRY. He did.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the
conversation that you first had with him?
Dr. PERRY. He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings
of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The
initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I
had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made
it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of
course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to
me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a
wound there and I suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even
perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action
was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other
findings.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is?
Dr. PERRY. Autopsy, postmortem examination.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the second conversation which you
had with Comdr. Humes, please?
Dr. PERRY. The second conversation was in regard to the placement of
the chest tubes for drainage of the chest cavity. And I related to him,
as I have to you, the indications that prompted me to advise that this
be done at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, did you observe any bruising of the neck
muscles of President Kennedy when you were engaged in your operative
procedure that you have described?
Dr. PERRY. This bruising, as you describe, would have been obscured
by the fact that there was a large amount of blood, hematoma, present
in the neck and the mediastinum and hence all the blood tissues were
covered by this blood.
Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in response to a question by Mr. McCloy
I believe you commented that, as you recollected it, very few of the
doctors would have had an opportunity to observe the hole in the
President's neck and I think you said that only you and Dr. Carrico
would have had such an opportunity. Can you state, with absolute
certainty, at which point the various doctors arrived in the room? And
bear in mind on this that while you have not had the opportunity to
review the depositions, some of the other doctors have expressed the
view that they have had an opportunity to see the wound. Specifically,
Dr. M. T. Jenkins said in a deposition that he did see the wound, and
I have not had an opportunity to ask you that question before, because
you made the comment during the course of the testimony today.
But I would like your comment on, in your opinion, whether the other
doctors would have had an opportunity, perhaps, to observe the neck
wound prior to the tracheotomy?
Dr. PERRY. Since I don't know with accuracy the exact times of their
arrival, it is conceivable that others could have seen it. And Dr.
Jenkins was apparently one of the early arrivals in the room.
However, at the time that I arrived, as I related, Dr. Carrico was
present and Dr. Jones and I. Dr. Jones immediately directed himself
toward obtaining another intravenous infusion, and I immediately went
to the neck wound. At the time of arrival of the other surgeons which
assisted me in the operation, I had already made the incision.
Dr. Jenkins could have arrived at the time that I was preparing to make
the incision and seen the wound. It is possible, I don't know when he
came in the room. I know he did not examine the wound per se.
Mr. SPECTER. And similarly Dr. Jones has commented in the course of his
deposition about the situation with respect to the wound in the neck.
Based on your observations, would it be consistent with what you know
to be fact that he had an opportunity to examine the neck wound?
Dr. PERRY. I know he might have seen it because he and I entered the
room simultaneously, we came down together. To my knowledge, he did not
examine the wound although he might have noted the wound present as I
went to work.
Mr. SPECTER. Specifically what did he do then as you went to work?
Dr. PERRY. He was standing immediately on my left at that point, doing
a venesection, a cut down in the left arm for the administration of
fluids so he was able to observe the performance of the tracheotomy.
Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, Dr. Perry, was President Kennedy alive or
dead on arrival at Parkland?
Dr. PERRY. The President was alive in that spontaneous ineffective
respiratory motions were observed by me, and although I never detected
a pulse or a heartbeat, I was told there was also electrical activity
on the cardiotachyscope when it was initially attached indicating there
was spontaneous activity of the heart.
He was, therefore alive for medical purposes.
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you about the electrical activity on the
cardiotachyscope?
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Clark.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any bullet found by you or by any other doctor at
Parkland in the President's body?
Dr. PERRY. I found none. To the best of my knowledge neither did anyone
else.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the President ever turned over at any time?
Dr. PERRY. Not by me nor did I see it done.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present as long as any other doctor was present
in the emergency room?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I think that at the time that I left trauma room
number one, I went outside, and washed my hands, and I opened the door
briefly to retrieve my coat which I had left there on the floor and the
nurse handed me my coat.
At that time as I recall Doctor Jenkins was still in the room and there
were several other people there including Mrs. Kennedy and the priest,
and some gentlemen whom I did not know.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you make any effort to examine the clothing of
President Kennedy?.
Dr. PERRY. I did not.
(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)
Mr. SPECTER. Why was it, Dr. Perry, that there was no effort made to
examine the clothing of President Kennedy and no effort to turn him
over and examine the back of the President?
Dr. PERRY. At the termination of the procedure and after we had
determined that Mr. Kennedy had expired, I cannot speak for the others
but as for myself, my work was done. I fought a losing battle, and
I actually obviously, having seen a lot of wounds, had no morbid
curiosity, and actually was rather anxious to leave the room. I had
nothing further to offer.
Mr. SPECTER. With the President having been declared dead, did you
consider it was your function to make any further exploration of the
President's body?
Dr. PERRY. This is not my function or my prerogative. This would be
undertaken by suitable authorities at the time of postmortem, people
with experience superior to mine in determining things of this sort.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy, if you know, during the course of
the treatment which you have described that you performed?
Dr. PERRY. I had the initial impression she was in the room most of
the time although I have been corrected on this. When I entered the
room she was standing by the door, rather kneeling by the door, and
someone was standing there beside her. I saw her several times during
the course of the resuscitative measures, when I would look up from the
operative field to secure an instrument from the nearby tray.
Mr. DULLES. Under your procedure who had the responsibility for
declaring that the President was dead?
Dr. PERRY. This was a combination of factors, Mr. Dulles, undertaken by
those of us all in attendance, by Dr. Clark and Dr. Jenkins and myself
particularly since we were the senior people there.
I was informed subsequently that Mrs. Kennedy left the room several
times to just outside the door but returned although as I say, I saw
her several times in the room. I did not speak to her nor she to me so
I do not have any knowledge as to exactly what she was doing.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound in the President's chest?
Dr. PERRY. I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any wound on the left side of the
President's head?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you heretofore during the course of your testimony
today described all of the wounds in the President which you have
observed?
Dr. PERRY. I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you and the other doctors affected, in your opinion,
in your treatment of the President by virtue of the fact that he was
the President of the United States?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; I am sure that is true. At the time that I was
going down the stairs to the emergency room I was, of course, quite
concerned, not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding the
incident nor in what condition I would find him, and at the time that I
entered the room, and it was my initial impression that he had a mortal
wound.
At that point I directed myself to doing that which I could do and, of
course, the time then became quite compressed during the course of the
procedures and it was really not until afterwards that the full impact
of what had happened began to hit me.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to render any treatment to
Governor Connally at Parkland Hospital?
Dr. PERRY. I saw the Governor in regard to the consultation in regard
to the injury to his leg. As I related earlier I am consultant in
vascular surgery to the hospital, and the estimated course of the
missile in his leg presupposed that he might have an injury to his
femoral artery or vein and Dr. Shires asked me if I would put on a
scrub suit and come to the operating room to assist in case it was
necessary to do some arterial surgery.
It was not, however, so I did not operate.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time approximately did you arrive at the operating
room where Governor Connally was being cared for?
Dr. PERRY. I don't know, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it during the course of the operation performed by Dr.
Shires?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, At that time I was there during the time Dr. Shires was
there and Dr. Gregory was also operating on the arm at that point. Dr.
Shaw had completed his portion of the procedure.
Mr. SPECTER. That would have been after the press conference had been
completed?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to render medical aid to Lee Harvey
Oswald on November 24?
Dr. PERRY. I did.
Mr. McCLOY. Before you get to that may I get clear, Dr. Shires and Dr.
Gregory were in attendance?
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw in addition.
Dr. PERRY. Yes, and Shaw.
Mr. McCLOY. Shaw, Shires and Gregory?
Doctor PERRY. S-h-i-r-e-s.
Representative BOGGS. Before you get to Oswald may I ask one question?
I am sure the doctor covered it. You said the minute you saw the
President you felt he had suffered a mortal wound?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Representative BOGGS. You saw the wound immediately then?
Dr. PERRY. Well, I saw his condition immediately, and as you are aware,
I have attended a lot of people with severe injuries.
Representative BOGGS. Surely.
Dr. PERRY. And he obviously was in extremis when I walked in the room.
And then I noted very cursorily the wound in the head and it was
obvious that this was an extremely serious wound.
Representative BOGGS. Was he still alive when you saw him?
Dr. PERRY. He was.
Representative BOGGS. That is all.
Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Specter, during the total time that
you were examining and treating the President, how much of his exposed
body did you see?
Dr. PERRY. The upper trunk predominantly, Congressman Ford. His chest,
and, of course, his arms were bare, neck and head. I did not examine
any other portions of his body nor did I see any other portions except
briefly when I felt for the femoral pulse on the left side.
Representative FORD. From the waist on up the front?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the treatment rendered to Mr. Oswald at
Parkland Memorial Hospital by yourself and by others as you observed it?
Dr. PERRY. At the time I saw--starting with when I was called?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. PERRY. Well, I went immediately to the emergency room again, Dr.
Jones and I who also was in the hospital again, and told me that I was
the only attending surgeon present, and that they were bringing Mr.
Oswald out, and I was in the surgery suite and I went directly to the
emergency room just as he was being brought indoors.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time was that?
Dr. PERRY. I really don't know, sir. It was about 11:15 or so when I
was up in surgery. I had been seeing a baby in regard to an operation
we had scheduled at 1 o'clock and then Dr. Jones came after me.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did it take you approximately to travel from the
point where you received the notice that he was en route until your
arrival at the emergency room?
Dr. PERRY. No more than 2 or 3 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. And you say you arrived there simultaneously with Mr.
Oswald?
Dr. PERRY. Just as he came in.
Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where in the hospital was it where you met Mr.
Oswald?
Dr. PERRY. He was brought into the emergency room, trauma room number
two, and as they wheeled him in I came around the corner.
Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take with respect to Mr. Oswald?
Dr. PERRY. Well, there were numerous people in attendance, more so
than on the previous incident on Friday. He also obviously was quite
seriously injured. He was cyanotic, very blue and although he also was
attempting respirations, they were not effective, and an endotracheal
tube was placed in him by one of the anesthesiologists, I think Dr.
Jenkins, and I examined his chest and noted the entrance point of the
bullet wound on the left side and I could feel the bullet just under
the skin on the right side, right rear margin, indicating the bullet
had passed entirely through his body and come to rest under the skin.
Mr. SPECTER. Where through his body?
Dr. PERRY. I beg your pardon sir, the bullet entered approximately the
midaxillary line at about the 9th or 10th interspace on the left side
of the chest cage, and came to rest just under the rib margin on the
right side under the skin.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you supply in lay language what cyanotic means?
Dr. PERRY. Blue from lack of oxygen.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you explain in lay language the midaxillary line?
Dr. PERRY. It is about the mid portion of the fold extending down from
the armpit on the left. This is just rough because I glanced at that
briefly and determined the nature of the path of the bullet and from
looking at him it was obvious that this had traversed major structures
in his body in order to reach that particular place, so while a cutdown
was being done again to administer fluid, I asked someone to put in a
left chest tube on him because it appeared it went in and I recalled
surgery until they were bringing him directly up.
Dr. Tom Shires, Chief of the Surgical Services, came into the door at
a point and Dr. McClelland, and we left and went to surgery to change
clothes and they brought him from there immediately to surgery and we
proceeded with the operation.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present, if anyone, with Mr. Oswald at the time
you arrived there?
Dr. PERRY. In the emergency room?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Jenkins was there, Dr. M. T. Jenkins, Chief of
Anesthesiology.
I think Dr. Giesecke was also there again, although I am not sure of
that. I saw Dr. Risk who is a resident in urology and I saw Dr. Dulany
who is a resident in surgery. Dr. Boland, I believe who is a resident
in thoracic surgery and, of course, Dr. Jones and myself, and there
were several other people, the nurses, I don't recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe briefly the physical layout utilized in
taking Mr. Oswald from trauma room number two which you have already
described up to the operating room?
Dr. PERRY. We have an express elevator that connects delivery room,
operating room, emergency room and it is approximately 20 yards from
trauma room two, I would estimate, just around the corner, in an even
corridor and although I was not there as they took him up, I was in
the operating room preparing and scrubbing, he was wheeled directly
there to the express elevator and taken to the second floor where the
operating suites are.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long does it take to get a patient from
the trauma room up to the operating room?
Dr. PERRY. It depends on a lot of factors. One is if the elevator is
there or not or if it happens to be in surgery or in the delivery room.
But I have on occasion where it was necessary that you must go with
all dispatch to the operating room, have done it in a matter of a few
minutes.
They brought him right in the door, placed him on the elevator with a
finger controlling the hemorrhage where you could take him directly to
the operating room. I have done that in a matter, I am sure, of less
than 3 or 4 minutes if I had to.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take to get Oswald from
trauma room two to the operating room?
Dr. PERRY. I don't know, I was told subsequently it was 12 minutes from
the time we had him up. And----
Representative BOGGS. How long was it from the time he was shot until
he reached the hospital?
Dr. PERRY. I have no knowledge of that, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Do you know?
Mr. SPECTER. No; I don't know.
Mr. DULLES. Was he conscious at any time so far as you know?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; he did not say a word.
Mr. DULLES. He was not conscious?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; and even had he been, of course, once we had the
endotracheal tube in he could not have spoken.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was in charge of the operation performed on Mr. Oswald?
Dr. PERRY. Dr. Tom Shires.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was in assistance with Dr. Shires?
Dr. PERRY. I first assisted Dr. Shires and then Ronald Jones and Dr.
McClelland were also at the operation.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the operative procedures employed on Mr.
Oswald please?
Dr. PERRY. Yes. From the nature of the trajectory of the wound and
the nature of the path of the bullet on the other side it was obvious
that it had traversed major vessels, the aorta and vena cava. The
aorta and vena cava, the heart area, and then a midline incision was
made. A rapid prep with iodine was done, the patient was draped. An
incision was carried rapidly into the abdominal cavity at which time
we noticed approximately 3 litres of free blood which is an excess of
three quarts. This was removed by suction, lap packs and by just moving
it out in the form of clots with the hands. It was noted there was
considerable bleeding appearing in both the right upper and left upper
quadrants of the body. There was a large hematoma retroperitoneally
in the midline also, causing the bowels to be pushed forward rather
strikingly.
We immediately dissected over the portal vein on the right since it
was apparently injured, and placed a vascular occlusive clamp of the
Sittinsky type in this area to control the bleeding. Noted an injury
to the right kidney and to the lobe of the liver. We also noted there
was an injury to the stomach, the pancreas, the spleen. At that point
it became apparent that he had indeed struck major vessels, and
appeared to be the aorta, so the left colon was reflected very rapidly
in order to allow us to enter the space behind the intestines, the
retroperitoneal space, and at that point I controlled the bleeding from
the aorta by finger pressure below and above this area.
The bullet had knocked the superior mesenteric artery completely off
the aorta exposing a large area.
After I had controlled the bleeding Dr. Shires was able to dissect
around the area sufficient to allow us to gain control of the aorta,
superior mesenteric artery and the vena cava and the placement of
vascular clamps across these vessels in order to stop the hemmorhage.
At this point, he was being given blood and, of course, the suitable
anesthesia measures which were oxygen under pressure. He did not
require an anesthetic agent, I am told.
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, Dr. Perry?
Dr. PERRY. I think one of the residents did, one of the anesthesia
residents. We at that point had restored his blood pressure. I don't
know the exact recordings, but I was told subsequently it had returned
to near normal levels since we had the bleeding controlled.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the situation with respect to his respiration at
that time?
Dr. PERRY. It was being assisted and controlled, of course, by
anesthesiology. This was no problem. We had a tube in place and
was breathing for him so he had no problem with respiration. This
was completely under control of anesthesia. The blood pressure was
controlled and we stopped for a moment to determine how we would best
go about repairing the structures and which would have priority, all
the bleeding had stopped but, as I recall, the clamping of the aorta at
the level of the superior mesenteric artery means, of course, that you
must prevent blood from entering the kidneys, and this in itself can be
hazardous if extended, and therefore we decided this must be repaired
immediately in order to restore blood into the kidneys and the lower
portion of the body.
Then Dr. Jenkins informed me and Dr. Shires that his cardiac action
was becoming weak, and I don't remember all the details surrounding
the medications and the things that were done at this particular time,
but he developed a backward cardiac failure, his heart slowed abruptly
and the blood pressure fell again and it was apparent the tremendous
blood loss he had had set the stage for irreversible shock and lack
of pumping action from the heart although he was being given massive
transfusions, I don't know the exact number, probably he had 10 or 12
units. I believe it is in the record.
At this point when they told me a cardiac arrest had occurred as a
result of the hemorrhage and blood loss I took a knife and opened the
left chest in the fourth interspace and reached in to massage his
heart, and the heart was flabby, and dilated, and apparently contained
very little blood.
I began to massage the heart, to maintain it as we infused the blood
and was able to obtain a palpable pulse in the carotid vessels going to
the neck and into the head. We were unable to get the heart to go, and
it began to fibrillate which is an uncoordinated motion of the muscles
of the heart itself and the successive electrical shocks were applied
with the defibrillator and to stimulate heart action, and we failed in
this and the cardiac pacemaker was sewn in place, and it was handed to
me by the thoracic surgery resident, and I sewed it into the heart to
artificially induce heart action, this also was without benefit.
We were never able to restore effective heart action and then Dr.
Jenkins informed as neurologically he was not responding, that his
reflexes were gone, and he felt that he had expired.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did that occur?
Dr. PERRY. I don't know, Mr. Specter, I would have to look at the
record.
Mr. SPECTER. At approximately how long after he arrived at the hospital
did that occur?
Dr. PERRY. I don't know that, either.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you approximate the length of time of the operation
itself?
Dr. PERRY. 45 minutes or so, I would say.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any question but that he was alive during the
course of your operative procedures?
Dr. PERRY. Oh, no, no question. The fact is we were very close, I
think, to winning the battle. We have seen injuries of this magnitude,
they rarely survive, this is a very serious injury and to the best
of my knowledge I have not seen anyone with this particular set of
injuries survive. But at one point once we controlled the hemorrhage
and once I had control of the aorta and was able to stop the bleeding
of that area I actually felt we had a very good chance since everything
had proceeded with expediency.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any representative of the
Federal Government in connection with your treatment of President
Kennedy, Dr. Perry?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. By whom were you interviewed?
Dr. PERRY. I regret that I do not recall their names. I was interviewed
by two gentlemen from the Secret Service approximately the following
week, as I recall, and again about a month ago.
Mr. SPECTER. And what questions were asked of you on the first
interview by the Secret Service?
Dr. PERRY. Essentially in regard to the treatment and once again
speculation as to where the bullets might have originated and what the
nature of the wounds were and I was unable to supply them with any
adequate information.
Mr. SPECTER. Were the responses given by you to the Secret Service on
that first interview essentially the same as you have given today?
Dr. PERRY. With minor variations in wording, they are essentially the
same.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the second interview occur with the
Secret Service?
Dr. PERRY. I think approximately a month ago, although I am not sure of
that.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of that interview?
Dr. PERRY. A gentleman identified himself as being connected with the
Warren Commission and Secret Service. I asked for his credentials which
he duly supplied and he asked me in regard to any further information I
might have pertaining to the events of that weekend, and we reiterated
some of these statements which I made previously, and since I had
nothing more to add, why it was terminated.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you supply any information which was in any way
different from that which you have testified to here today?
Dr. PERRY. In essence; no, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. On the second interview, did the man identify himself to
you as a Secret Service agent who was conducting a further inquiry at
the request of the President's Commission?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; he said he was with the Warren Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Did I discuss the facts within your knowledge or take your
deposition in Dallas on Wednesday, March 25, 1964?
Dr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And was the information which you provided at that time
in advance of the deposition and during the course of the deposition
itself the same as the information which you provided here today
concerning the treatment of President Kennedy, your observations and
opinions on President Kennedy?
Dr. PERRY. It is.
Mr. SPECTER. Have I made that transcript available to you this morning
before we started this testimony?
Dr. PERRY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you at any time changed any opinion which you held
concerning any matter relating to President Kennedy?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you prepare a handwritten report on your care of
President Kennedy which became part of the record of Parkland Hospital?
Dr. PERRY. I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Which you identified during the course of the deposition
proceeding as being your report?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any other notes of your own relating to any of
the matters which you testified here today?
Dr. PERRY. None.
Mr. McCLOY. What was the condition of, general physical condition,
apart from the wounds, of Oswald, as you observed him? Was his body
healthy?
Dr. PERRY. I made only a very cursory examination, Mr. McCloy. He
appeared rather thin to me.
Mr. McCLOY. Not, you wouldn't call him a muscular type?
Dr. PERRY. No, he would be what we would describe as a thinnish
individual, that is very thin; was wiry rather than bulky muscles.
Mr. McCLOY. Were there any signs that you observed cursorily, symptoms
of any prior disease?
Dr. PERRY. No, I did not look for those.
Mr. DULLES. No distinguishing marks on the body that you saw, prior
operations?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; I did not look. There was no evidence of previous
surgical operation on his abdomen, and I didn't examine anything else.
Of course, this also can be missed unless you are looking for it. We
went through the midline and unless one went looking for it we did not
have time and we would not see it.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Perry, was the chest tube inserted in the President's
chest abandoned or was that operation or operative procedure completed?
Dr. PERRY. The chest tube, to be placed there, was supposedly placed
into the pleural cavity. However, I have knowledge that it was not.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the reason for its not being placed into the
pleural cavity?
Dr. PERRY. I did not speak with certainty but at that point I think
that we were at the end of the procedure and they just did not continue
with it.
Mr. SPECTER. Had it become apparent at that time that the President
expired?
Dr. PERRY. That, I think, is probably true, but I did not state that
with certainty because I cannot state the exact sequence. I was
employed myself at the time, and I think if it had been determined that
this was not in, it would have been completed, if there was still time,
but I am not sure of that. That is speculation.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the condition of the neck wounds, was it
ragged or pushed out in any manner?
Dr. PERRY. No, it was not. As I originally described it, the edges were
neither cleancut, that is punched out, nor were they very ragged. I
realize that is not a very specific description but it is in between
those two areas.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there blood in that area which tended to obscure your
view?
Dr. PERRY. It was exuding blood during that procedure and thus I did
not examine it very closely. In retrospect, I think it would have been
of much more value had I looked at these things more carefully but I
had directed my attention to other things.
Mr. SPECTER. Those complete my questions.
Representative FORD. Mr. McCloy?
Mr. Dulles?
Have you examined the autopsy report made by the officials in Bethesda?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir, I have.
Representative FORD. Does your testimony conform to the facts stated in
that report?
Dr. PERRY. I think so. At the time the testimony which I have given
here of my knowledge without the--was given the same as it was without
the basis of that report. But now having had access to that report,
I think it ties in very nicely. I see no discrepancies at all. For
example, had I known that he had these other two wounds, it would have
been much easier at the time to state a little more categorically about
the trajectory of the missiles, but not knowing about those I could
only speculate.
Representative FORD. There is no basic conflict between what you have
testified to or what you have said previously, and the autopsy report?
Dr. PERRY. None at all.
Representative BOGGS. Just one question. I presume this question has
been asked.
This neck wound, was there any indication that that wound had come from
the front?
Dr. PERRY. There is no way to tell, sir, for sure. As you may recall,
passage of a high velocity missile, the damage it does, is dependent on
two factors, actually, one being deformation of the missile, increase
in its relative caliber, and the other the expending of the energy of
that missile in the object it strikes.
For example, the energy used to carry the missile beyond the object
that it struck is obviously not going to cause much of an injury. If
there is a missile of relatively high velocity, although I consider
this a medium velocity weapon, that the missile for entrance or exit
had the bullet not been deformed would not be substantially different,
had it not been deformed nor particularly slowed in its velocity.
Representative BOGGS. By that, you mean it would be difficult to
determine the point of exit and the point of entrance under those
circumstances?
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; unless one were able to ascertain the trajectory.
If you could, for example, make check points between what the missile
might have struck, then you could ascertain trajectory. But with a
relatively high velocity missile, this also is difficult due to the
amount of blast injury which occurs in enclosed tissues, similar to
those I am sure you have seen to those discussed, so blast injury can
be an area remote from the exact passage of the missile itself.
Representative BOGGS. Of course, your main concern was to try to save
the President's life and not----
Dr. PERRY. Yes, sir; it actually never occurred to me until all the
questions began to come, and I was ill-prepared to meet them, but it
never occurred to me that, to investigate, because I was busy, and I
have done these types of things many times.
It just never occurred to me to look into it until afterwards.
Representative FORD. Any questions, Dean Storey?
Mr. STOREY. No, thank you, sir.
Representative FORD. Mr. Murray?
Mr. MURRAY. No.
Mr. DULLES. I have one more question I would like to ask.
Did you know anything about the spent bullet that was found on, I don't
know what you call it--the litter?
Dr. PERRY. On the carriage?
Mr. DULLES. On the carriage.
Dr. PERRY. My first knowledge of that was one of the newspaper
publications had said there was a bullet found there. I don't know now
whether it was or was not. I didn't find it.
Mr. SPECTER. May I say, Mr. Dulles, on that subject, I took several
depositions on that subject in the Dallas Hospital and I think we have
a reasonably conclusive answer on that question; and, in fact, it came
from the stretcher of Governor Connally.
Dr. PERRY. They were quoted as having removed a bullet from Governor
Connally's leg, the press quoted that, but a bullet was not removed
from Governor Connally's leg.
Mr. SPECTER. There was no bullet removed from Governor Connally's
leg, but there was a wound there, but there was a very small fragment
embedded in the femur, as the deposition of Drs. Shaw, Shires, and
Gregory will show. But the bullet was found on a stretcher and the
question arose as to whose stretcher it was, and we have traced the two
stretchers in a way so as to exclude the possibility of its being the
stretcher on which President Kennedy was carried, and we have traced
the path of Governor Connally's stretcher and have narrowed it to two
stretchers. And the bullet came off of one of the two stretchers,
so that, through the circumstances of the facts, it is reasonably
conclusive that it came from the stretcher of Governor Connally.
Representative FORD. How long did it take you to go from where you were
when the page came to get down to trauma room No. 1?
Dr. PERRY. A matter of no more than a minute or so, Congressman Ford.
It is down one flight of stairs and the door is almost immediately
adjacent to the dining room where we would go and we did not wait on
the elevator. We went down the stairs.
Representative FORD. How long after the President was brought in before
you went to trauma room No. 1?
Dr. PERRY. That I don't know either. My last recollection in regard to
time was approximately 12:30 when I was having lunch prior to rounds,
and Dr. Jones picked up the page and as we went downstairs I took off
my watch and dropped it in my coat pocket, rather expecting to do some
kind of procedure, and I took off my coat and I never looked at the
clock until afterwards.
Mr. McCLOY. One more question, I want to get clear.
The extent to which you examined Governor Connally's wounds, as I
gather, you were asked to stand by.
Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. Rather than to be involved in a close examination of the
wounds.
Dr. PERRY. That is right, sir.
Mr. McCLOY. So you are not generally familiar?
Dr. PERRY. No, sir; all I did was come into the operating room, put on
a scrub suit, cap and mask, and looked at the thigh wound before Dr.
Shires started the operation. That was the extent of the episode into
the wound, and I stayed there while he carried it down to the lower
portion of the wound and indicated there was no serious injury, and I
left the operating room at that point.
Mr. McCLOY. And you didn't see the other two wounds?
Dr. PERRY. I didn't see the other wounds at all, sir.
Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Dr. Perry.
Your testimony has been most helpful.
(Whereupon, at 11:45 a.m., the President's Commission recessed.)
_Tuesday, March 31, 1964_