Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; west in relation to the sidewalk.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Then what did you see the man do?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him turn facing the street, and then I didn't see
him any more after that because he went behind some shrubbery.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the police officer do anything?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him get out of the police car.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see what side he went out of?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He got out of the driver's side, left-hand side.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see happen?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Then he took about a step, I would say, or approximately
one or two steps, and then I wasn't really--you know--I went back to my
eating, and about that time I heard the shots.
Mr. BELIN. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Three or four, in the neighborhood. They was fast.
Mr. BELIN. They were fast shots?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; they were fast.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or say or hear?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Then I saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall.
Mr. BELIN. Which man did you see fall?
Mr. SCOGGINS. The policeman. I was excited when I heard them shots,
and I started to get out--since we went back over there the other day
and reenacted that scene, I must have seen him fall as I was getting
out of my cab, because I got out of the cab, and in the process of
getting out of the cab I seen this guy coming around, so I got out of
sight. I started to cross the street, but I seen I didn't have enough
time to cross the street before he got down there, so I got back behind
the cab, and as he cut across that yard I heard him running into some
bushes, and I looked up and seen him going south on Patton and then
when I jumped back in my cab I called my dispatcher.
Mr. BELIN. Why did you jump out of your cab first when you heard the
shots?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Because anytime that there is anything going on that is
one thing the cab driver wants to do is to get away from that cab,
because the man is going to try--if he had ever seen the cab, he looked
back over his left shoulder, and I don't think he even seen the cab--he
would have probably jumped in the cab and had me take him somewhere or
maybe shot me, too, you know, and I didn't want to be around the cab
at anytime while he was in the neighborhood, you know, when there was
anything like that going on, or anything, robbery, or anything.
Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you saw the officer fall. Did you see
where he fell?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he fell right by the side of the front, about, a
little bit forward of the door, right about the door.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever later go up and view the officer?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I went up there, but by the time I got up there the
ambulance had already got there. You see I got my dispatcher and was
telling him about it, just by that time the ambulance got there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you notice anything in the street to indicate where the
officer fell?
Mr. SCOGGINS. There was blood there, of course. They picked the man up
by the time I got there, the ambulance did.
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question? You were in touch with your
dispatcher over your radio contact?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. What did you tell your dispatcher?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I told him there had been a policeman shot at 10th and
Patton, and you see they have a number of cars they are talking to, you
know, and I had to holler about three or four times before I got his
attention, and then I seen I wasn't going to get through to him, so I
just hollered there had been a policeman shot at 10th and Patton, and
then they went to talking to me then.
Mr. DULLES. What did they say to you then?
Mr. SCOGGINS. The first thing they says is do they need an ambulance,
and I says, "Sure." And they wanted to know the exact location, and I
said right off east of 10th and Patton, and the ambulance was only a
block and a quarter or so from the scene, you see, and they just come
on right around there.
Mr. DULLES. And this conversation took you a minute or two, would you
estimate?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, a couple of minutes, I would say. It was pretty
close.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Scoggins, handing you what the Commission reporter has
marked, or what has been marked as Commission Exhibit 527, I ask you to
state if this substance on the street here appears to be anything you
had ever seen before.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; that appears to be the officer's blood, blood from
the officer.
Mr. BELIN. Is that located in approximate location to this car in the
same relative position that you saw the blood when you were there, or
is it any different, if you know?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I was kind of excited there, a little bit, and I could be
mistaken, but I was thinking he was a little bit closer to the car than
that.
Mr. BELIN. You thought he was a little bit closer to the car than that?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. I thought he was, but I could be mistaken.
Mr. BELIN. Handing you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 529,
which shows a picture of a car and appears to be some kind of a stain
in the street, does that look to you any closer to the car than Exhibit
527, or does that look to be about the same place?
Mr. SCOGGINS. It looks to be about the same place as that one there
does.
Mr. BELIN. All right. You thought it was a little bit closer to the
front?
Mr. SCOGGINS. All right. I thought it was.
Mr. BELIN. Did the officer fall, did he fall forward or backward in any
way?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He fell forward.
Mr. BELIN. He fell forward?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember where his head was lying as he fell forward,
if you know?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't be sure about that. He kind of fell in a
crumpled manner, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw the officer fall, when was the next place
that you saw the man, or did you see him at the same time you saw the
officer fall, the other man?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No. I saw him coming kind of toward me around that cutoff
through there, and he never did look at me. He looked back over his
left shoulder like that, as he went by. It seemed like I could see his
face, his features and everything plain, you see.
Mr. BELIN. Was he walking or running or trotting?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Kind of loping, trotting.
Mr. BELIN. Kind of loping or trotting?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Not in too big a hurry. It didn't seem like at first.
Mr. BELIN. At first not too big a hurry?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he change that at all?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Never did change his pace as long as I saw him. I don't
know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece,
because then I was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and I never did
look and never did get to see him.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.
Mr. BELIN. Did the pistol appear to be--did he appear to be doing
anything with the pistol or not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He had it, holding it, in his left hand in a manner
that the barrel was up like this, and the stock was down here, curved
back in here.
Mr. BELIN. Did it look like the gun had been flipped open at all or not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I wouldn't say.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I don't.
Mr. DULLES. You said he had it in his left hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see where his right hand was?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He was kind of running, kind of like this, in this manner.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear the man say anything?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I heard him mutter something like, "poor damn cop," or
"poor dumb cop." He said that over twice, and the last, I don't know
whether the middle word was "damn" or "dumb," but anyway, he muttered
that twice.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear him say any other word or phrase?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did you hear anyone else making any noise at about that time?
Mr. SCOGGINS. No; I didn't. Of course, there were people coming up
there, around there, but I didn't--I didn't notice any.
Mr. BELIN. Recently in Dallas you were asked to go to the scene of the
Tippit shooting to try to reconstruct the positions of the various
people at this time; is that correct?