Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all we made a stop before we got to the last
stop that we was when the policeman came up.
Mr. BALL. Yes. That is where I want you to show me now, where you made
the stop. This is the fifth floor diagram.
We will mark the fifth floor diagram as Exhibit 487.
(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 487 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. This is Elm Street on 487, and here are the windows where you
have shown us you were standing.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also
point to the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The direction that we ran after we heard the shots was--I
would say I was in about this position here, this window. And we left
like this. Harold was coming from here.
Mr. BALL. Let me show you the diagram. Here are these two pair of
windows that are shown here on this diagram. This is the corner. Here
is the next window, and here is the next window.
Now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was right here.
Mr. BALL. Mark an X, and bring it on down, and show us.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I left here, and I came like this. The other fellows
followed like this. We all was running this direction here. And I
believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. And I am not sure,
but I think James Jarman, he raised this window, this corner window
here, and we all huddled in this corner window.
Mr. BALL. We will mark that window Y. And then you ran from X to Y, you
three men?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was the window open or closed?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I think it was closed at the time.
Mr. BALL. Was it opened then?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe James Jarman opened the window.
Mr. BALL. Now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went
to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. This window which you have shown as Y, in 487, the diagram of
the fifth floor.
Mr. WILLIAMS. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Here is 488.
(The document so described was marked Commission Exhibit No. 488 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. Is that the window?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; it is.
Mr. BALL. And is that about the way you were standing as you looked out
to the west?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That is about the way we were standing.
Mr. BALL. Did you run fast towards the west?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We did. We moved rather fast. We was at a trotting pace.
Mr. DULLES. Was that to get a better view of the President's party in
the car?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I don't think--we knew the President had been
shot at at that time. The car was gone, you know. It has speeded up
and left. But the people, as I said before, the policemen and people
were running towards the tracks. The tracks are at this side of the
building. We wondered why they were running that way.
Mr. DULLES. How did you know the President was shot at this time?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him.
And we decided to run down that way.
Representative FORD. Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I really don't know. We just never did think about it.
And after we had made this last stop, James Jarman said, "Maybe we
better get the hell out of here." And so we just ran down to the fourth
floor, and came on down. We never did think about it, going up to the
sixth floor. Maybe it was just because we were frightened.
Mr. DULLES. Did you know the President had been hit?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, personally I did not know he had been hit, but I
think Harold--I remember--I don't know whether he said or not--but I
think he said he saw him slump. So from that I think we all assumed he
had been shot at.
Mr. DULLES. One of the other two?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I think it was.
Mr. DULLES. Said that?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; I believe that is what he said. Anyway, we knew
he had been shot at.
Mr. BALL. After you left this corner window in the southwest corner
that we have shown you the picture of as 488, where did you go?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Then we moved over to another window on the west side of
the building.
Mr. BALL. Let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, 487, and you
show me where that window was.
Mr. WILLIAMS. It was one of these windows, I believe it was this window
here, I believe. Maybe it was this window. I would say this window.
Mr. BALL. All right. We will mark that Z--window Z.
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And the other day, Friday, March 20th, when we were in
Dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you had your picture taken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That is 489.
(The described document was marked Commission Exhibit No. 489 for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. Is that about it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go there and look in that direction?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Because, as I said before, the policeman was running
toward the tracks.
Mr. BALL. The tracks shown in this picture?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I believe that is the parking lot right here.
Mr. BALL. And the tracks are shown in there, aren't they?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And were people running towards the tracks?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; the policemen were.
Representative FORD. Mr. Ball, I hate to interrupt, but I do have to
go to a call of the House. I wonder if I could ask one question right
here. I dislike breaking up the sequence.
Mr. Williams, when did you first know that the President's motorcade
would come by the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I never did know the exact time. But I think my
wife had mentioned it before that Friday. She had told me, because I
never did have too much time reading the paper. And that morning, that
Friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and I think some fellows
mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me.
Representative FORD. You did not know the motorcade was coming by your
building until Friday morning?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't know the exact way it was coming,
because I hadn't been reading the papers.
Representative FORD. You had not read the paper the day before?
Mr. WILLIAMS. About the only thing I would read in the paper in the
mornings before I leave home would be the sports.
Representative FORD. Was it discussed in the building that morning of
November 22d that the motorcade was coming by the Texas School Book
Depository?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe I heard a couple of fellows say--I don't
remember exactly who it was--but I believe I heard them say the
motorcade was coming around that way.
Representative FORD. But it was not until Friday that you personally
knew it was coming by the building?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. I would like to ask one question here.
When you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear
anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth
floor with you?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.
Mr. DULLES. You did not see anything?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not see anything.
Mr. DULLES. You were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the
sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. During that period of from 12 o'clock about to--10 or 15
minutes after?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I felt like I was all alone. That is one of the
reasons I left--because it was so quiet.
Mr. McCLOY. When you saw Oswald that morning, was he carrying any
package? Did you see any bundle or package with him?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't see anything other than the clipboard
with the orders on it that he was filling, as I remember.
Mr. McCLOY. How many shots did you hear fired?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I heard three shots. But at first I told the FBI I only
heard two--they took me down--because I was excited, and I couldn't
remember too well. But later on, as everything began to die down, I
got my memory even a little better than on the 22d, I remembered three
shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. There was
two real quick. There was three shots.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything upstairs at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I didn't hear anything.
Mr. BALL. Any footsteps?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir. Probably the reason we didn't hear anything is
because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was
making a louder noise.
Mr. BALL. You really ran?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; we ran. And that was probably making a lot of
noise.
Mr. BALL. Now, I'm going to hold this up. I don't know whether
everybody can see it or not----
Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question in connection with your last
question?
Did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were
eating your meal?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. DULLES. You didn't hear the elevators at all?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir.
Mr. DULLES. If an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard
it then?