Mr. JENNER. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and
one with the Venetian blinds?
Mrs. PAINE. I can't recall. The rods were so thin they hardly warranted
a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it.
Mr. JENNER. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very
lightweight metal?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. They were not round.
Mr. JENNER. They were flat and slender?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. They were not at all heavy?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect?
Mrs. PAINE. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held
them up on the wall.
Mr. JENNER. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it
might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would
you draw a picture of the rods?
Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well,
over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over
a slight bit, and then this is recessed.
Mr. JENNER. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of
paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an
exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did
you say this was, in the lower diagram?
Mrs. PAINE. You are looking down.
Mr. JENNER. Now, where was the break?
Mrs. PAINE. The break?
Mr. JENNER. You said they were extension.
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be
like that.
Mr. JENNER. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen
if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The double line indicates what on either side?
Mrs. PAINE. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent
around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing.
We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the
witness is now drawing the curtain rod.
(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)
Mr. JENNER. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good
enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at
hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might
come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them
to us.
Mrs. PAINE. You are perfectly welcome to them.
Mr. JENNER. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine, do not open the
package until we arrive?
Mrs. PAINE. I won't even look, then.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation
and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have
indicated as "A" is a depiction of what?
Mrs. PAINE. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when
it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the
window.
Mr. JENNER. And "B"?
Mrs. PAINE. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from
outside the house; the window.
Mr. JENNER. While the rod was in place?
Mrs. PAINE. While the rod was in place.
Mr. JENNER. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it
attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side
of the rod?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends
of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each
end?
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in
the rod.
I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449
the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has
testified.
Senator COOPER. It will be admitted as part of the evidence.
(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.)
Mr. JENNER. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald,
or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your
presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods
was mentioned?
Mrs. PAINE. No; there was no such conversation.
Mr. JENNER. Was the subject of curtain rods--had that ever been
mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your
home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4,
1963?
Mrs. PAINE. It had not been mentioned.
Mr. JENNER. Never by anybody?
Mrs. PAINE. By anybody.
Mr. JENNER. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even
inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject,
as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the
curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately?
Mrs. PAINE. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it
must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure
was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide,
so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served
at these different windows.
Mr. JENNER. The rods were identical in length when unextended?
Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended; yes.
Mr. JENNER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Or when fully extended.
Mr. JENNER. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as
great as 42 inches?
Mrs. PAINE. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used
for.
Mr. JENNER. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain
them?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And we will know exactly their length, extended and
unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the rods when not
extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window.
Mrs. PAINE. I believe it is more that width than 36.
Mr. JENNER. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the
width or the length of the rods is when not extended?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this.
Mr. JENNER. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please?
Mr. LIEBELER. About 28 inches.
Mr. JENNER. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods,
gentlemen, if you have any questions.
Mr. McCLOY. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the
curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials?
Mrs. PAINE. Not the Dallas police.
Mr. McCLOY. Not the Dallas police?
Mrs. PAINE. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such
question.
Mr. McCLOY. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are
aware of?
Mrs. PAINE. You are aware what the police took. I never did know
exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the rods
having left.
Mr. McCLOY. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to
you about curtain rods?
Mrs. PAINE. Absolutely no.
Mr. McCLOY. But possibly some member of the FBI did?
Mrs. PAINE. Possibly. I can't recall.
Mr. McCLOY. You can't recall?
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else
up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you
have now testified?
Mrs. PAINE. I have already said Michael and I discussed it.
Mr. JENNER. When?
Mrs. PAINE. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess.
Mr. JENNER. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about
which you have now testified?
Mrs. PAINE. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping
paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall
that.
Representative FORD. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of
wrapping paper?
Mrs. PAINE. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept
it. I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor
Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had.
Representative FORD. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely.
Mrs. PAINE. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large
secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom
drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon
which----
Mr. JENNER. The note was found?
Mrs. PAINE. The note was found.
Representative FORD. You kept it in the lower drawer?
Mrs. PAINE. Along with some gum tape and string.
Representative FORD. And this is the section shown on Commission
Exhibit 435?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler,
28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many
curtain rods there were?
Mrs. PAINE. Two, I am certain.
Mr. JENNER. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about
curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you
know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same
condition now as when you wrapped it initially?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar.
Senator COOPER. What was the answer?
Mrs. PAINE. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at
anytime?
Mrs. PAINE. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes.
Mr. JENNER. You think he might have but you don't know.
Mrs. PAINE. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't
something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get
done.
Mr. JENNER. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you
know are on the shelf in your garage at your home?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject
with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these
particular curtain rods?
Mrs. PAINE. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me.
Mr. JENNER. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI
on this particular subject?
Mrs. PAINE. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the
content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember
if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative.
Mr. JENNER. But you do not?
Mrs. PAINE. But I do not remember such an occasion.
Mr. JENNER. Unless the members of the Commission have any further
questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the
afternoon.
Senator COOPER. I want to ask just two questions. Before the
assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in
it was situated within the garage?
Mrs. PAINE. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I
did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They
were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And
found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package.
Mr. JENNER. You did find the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What was the size of the package in length and width if you
can remember at the time you wrapped it?
Mrs. PAINE. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping
paper folded over.
Mr. JENNER. Would you hold your hands there please.
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep
the dust off.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thirty-two and a half inches.
Senator COOPER. What was the width of the package?
Mrs. PAINE. Like so.
Senator COOPER. That you wrapped?
Mrs. PAINE. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the
package with the venetian blind. I don't recall exactly the package
with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they
warranted a package of their own.
Mr. LIEBELER. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7-1/2
inches.
Senator COOPER. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod
which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their
approximate size?
Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half inches to three inches.
Senator COOPER. What?
Mrs. PAINE. Two and a half to three inches.
Senator COOPER. All right, go ahead.
Mr. JENNER. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your
driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on
the sofa you have described?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and
indicate----
Mrs. PAINE. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set?
Mr. JENNER. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is,
and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening
that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door?
Mrs. PAINE. That is the front door.
Mr. JENNER. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room
wall.
Mrs. PAINE. Practically the rest of the wall is window.
Mr. JENNER. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. The fact is that is a picture window?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is
exactly like this. There it is.
Mr. JENNER. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is
shown there, is it not?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked
along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is
there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television
set?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, yes.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. McCLOY. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave.
Senator COOPER. I can stay here while the details are filled in.
Mr. JENNER. The police arrived and what occurred.
Mrs. PAINE. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both
the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least
one package or two. I was very surprised.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say anything?
Mrs. PAINE. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man
in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He
is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea
that Lee might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved
in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to
search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't.
They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I
insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.
They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most
of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where
the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed
where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds.
Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the
garage.
Mr. JENNER. How many police officers were there?
Mrs. PAINE. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various
parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald
have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to
Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked
into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.
Mr. JENNER. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?
Mrs. PAINE. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close
to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the
blanket roll.
Mr. JENNER. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and
I will just put it on the floor.
Mrs. PAINE. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll
and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to
have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew
that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.