Mrs. PAINE. But this was the first indication I had that this man was
a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it
should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He
addressed it "Dear Sirs." It looked to me like someone trying to make
an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that
impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make
an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my
mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I
left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and
let them conclude or add it to what they knew.
I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two
things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination.
One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I
had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI
agent who was asking the address of where he lived.
Mr. JENNER. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine.
Mrs. PAINE. Well, that is regret 1.
Mr. JENNER. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment.
Mrs. PAINE. But then of course you see in light of the events that
followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for
the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November.
Mr. JENNER. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your
copy of the letter?
Mrs. PAINE. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk.
I then, Sunday evening, also took the original. I decided to do that
Sunday evening.
Mr. JENNER. He had left?
Mrs. PAINE. No, he had not left.
Mr. JENNER. He had not left?
Mrs. PAINE. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to
come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the
letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all
the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it.
Mr. JENNER. When did you take it out of the desk?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or
the next morning, I don't recall.
Mr. JENNER. And this was the 10th of November?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that?
Mrs. PAINE. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't
go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story,
if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him
saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say,
"What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I
didn't know what to do.
Representative FORD. Fearful in what way?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to
the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I
find on my desk."
Mr. JENNER. Were you fearful of any physical harm?
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not.
Representative FORD. That is what I was concerned about.
Mrs. PAINE. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I
sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real
upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow."
He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility
of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was
keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and
it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and
we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I
excused myself and went to bed.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter
and the original?
Mrs. PAINE. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of
November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I
said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it.
Mr. JENNER. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the
original or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy
with respect to the FBI.
Mrs. PAINE. Prior.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to the 23d did you say?
Mrs. PAINE. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative
document?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts
about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this
was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure.
I of course made no--I didn't know him to be a violent person, had
no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no
connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so
much better, I would certainly have called the FBI's attention to it.
Supposing that I had?
Mr. JENNER. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated
during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you
have disclosed this document to the FBI?
Mrs. PAINE. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at
all comfortable in having even.
Mr. JENNER. Were you expecting the FBI to return?
Mrs. PAINE. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that
Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time
to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now
certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in
seeing him.
Representative FORD. How did you copy the note?
Mrs. PAINE. Handwritten.
Representative FORD. Handwritten?
Mrs. PAINE. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I
only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave
him--from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name
and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I
gave this to Lee the weekend he came.
Mr. JENNER. You gave it to Lee?
Mrs. PAINE. I gave it to Lee.
Mr. JENNER. What weekend was that?
Mrs. PAINE. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that
would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day.
Mr. JENNER. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what
day of the week?
Mrs. PAINE. It is a Friday. Then he told me, it must have been the
following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on
the telephone?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the
recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the
downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note.
And my impression of it is that this notice irritated.
Mr. JENNER. Irritating?
Mrs. PAINE. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought.
This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and
his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was
specifically said to him later.
Mr. JENNER. You mean he was irritated?
Mrs. PAINE. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit
my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well
have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to
say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him.
He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there,
and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest
to them for years to come.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say to that?
Mrs. PAINE. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my
feeling.
I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited,
do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing
pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he
had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would
too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my
interpretation.
Mr. JENNER. Have you given all of what he said and what you said,
however, on that occasion?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few
weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing,
thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part.
But it appears to have been another lie.
Mr. JENNER. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to
cover that as a separate subject.
Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like
to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being
parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the
fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee
Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.
Mrs. PAINE. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to
Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with
the various materials?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.
Mr. JENNER. Who did that?
Mrs. PAINE. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night
on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too,
and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about
where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the
binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.
Mr. JENNER. The boat on top of the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of
luggage placed in the station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I
could move, he put those in.
Mr. JENNER. Describe their appearance, please.
Mrs. PAINE. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.
Mr. JENNER. With what?
Mrs. PAINE. Rumply.
Mr. JENNER. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which
might have led you to believe----
Mrs. PAINE. A board in it, no.
Mr. JENNER. A tent pole, a long object, hard?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. Nothing at all?
Mrs. PAINE. No.
Mr. JENNER. And how many pieces of luggage?
Mrs. PAINE. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including
quite a small one, and the little radio.
Mr. JENNER. What about the zipper bag?
Mrs. PAINE. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I
don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.
Mr. JENNER. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is
important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not
certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he
first arrived.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels
because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them
on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.
Mr. JENNER. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you
described yesterday?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All of the pieces that you saw?
Mrs. PAINE. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even
recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.
Mr. JENNER. Was there more than one?
Mrs. PAINE. There was certainly more than one.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think there were more than two?
Mrs. PAINE. I don't recall specifically.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece
of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at
4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I have no specific recollection.
Mr. JENNER. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the
moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described
yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with
you to Irving?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?
Mrs. PAINE. I do not recall such a package.
Mr. JENNER. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a
blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your
clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't
as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was
leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.
Mr. JENNER. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or
character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?
Mrs. PAINE. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of
that nature.
Mr. JENNER. You saw nothing?
Mrs. PAINE. I saw nothing.
Mr. JENNER. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when
your station wagon was unpacked?
Mrs. PAINE. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.
Mr. JENNER. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station
wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?
Mrs. PAINE. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the
two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you
reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?
Mrs. PAINE. I recall no such package.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?
Mrs. PAINE. Not to my recollection.