Cleo. They are so; but it is only in the Management of those, whose

Consciences are under their Direction. A Jesuit may tell a Man such or

such Things are allow'd to Him in particular, and give him Reasons for

it from his Quality, or the Post he is in, from the State of his

Health, his Temperament, his Age, or his Circumstances: But he'll not

deny or explain away the Self-denial and the Mortification in general,

that are commanded in the Gospel. When you come to this Point, he'll

not lessen the Difficulty and Irksomeness of Christian Duties to Human

Nature and the Flesh; but he'll refer you to the Founder of his Order,

and the great Self-denial he practis'd: Perhaps he'll relate to you,

how that Saint watch'd his Arms all Night, after he had dedicated

them, together with his Life, to the _Virgin Mary_. But that the Gospel

requires a literal Mortification of the Flesh, and other hard Tasks

from us, is the very Basis which the Pope's Exchequer is built upon.

He could have no Colour for enjoining Fasting and Abstinence, if it

was not supposed, that he had a Warrant for it from the New Testament.

It is this Supposition, that brings all the Grist to his Mill; and

thus a Man may eat Flesh in Lent, without a Sin; but tho' he can get

the Meat perhaps for Nothing, he shall pay for the Liberty of Eating

it. Buying Absolutions implies the Consciousness of having committed a

Crime; and No body would give Money for Indulgences, if he thought,

that what he desires to be indulged in, was lawful without them. All

Multitudes will sooner believe a Man to come from God, who leads an

Austere Life himself, and preaches Abstinence and Self-denial to

others tho' they themselves, I mean the Hearers, don't practice it, or

take any Pains to comply with his Precepts, than they will another,

who takes greater Liberties himself, and whose Doctrine is less

severe. This the wise Architects of the Church of _Rome_, who were

thoroughly skill'd in Human Nature, were well aware of; and

accordingly they have improved upon the Scriptures, and added Lustre

to all those Precepts, which is most difficult to comply with; and in

commenting on the severest Duties of Christianity, they have been so

far from extenuating and explaining away our Obligations to perform

them, that they have heighten'd and magnify'd them, not only by Words

and in Theory, but the Practice and Example; as is so manifest from

the hard and almost incredible Tasks, which many of them have actually

impos'd upon themselves, and gone through. They have flinch'd at

Nothing on this Head.

Hor. A Man must be very stupid to believe, that his close Attachment

to the World, and the Loosness of his own Morals can be atton'd for by

the recluse and strict Lives that are led in some Religious Houses.

Cleo. Not so stupid as you imagine: There is Nothing in it that

clashes with the common Notions of Mankind. Ceremonies are perform'd

by Proxy; Men are Security for one another; and a Debt is not more

effectually discharg'd, when we receive the Money from him who

borrow'd it, than when it is paid by his Bail, tho' the Principal

himself runs away. If there is but real Self-denial to be met with any

where in a Religion, it is no difficult Matter to make Multitudes

believe, that they have, or may buy, a Share in it: Besides, all _Roman

Catholicks_ are brought up in the firm Belief of the Necessity there is

of Self-denial. They are strictly forbid to eat Flesh on Fridays; and

Pains are taken to inspire them from their very Childhood with a

Honour against the breaking of this Commandment. It is incredible,

what Force such a Precept is of, and how closely the Influence of it

sticks to men, when it has been earnestly inculcated to them from

their early Youth. There is no Difficulty in the Thing when they are

grown up; and I'll engage, that a _Roman_ Catholick, who always has been

accustom'd to this Piece of Observance till he is Five and Twenty

Years of Age, will find it more easy afterwards to continue than to

leave it off, tho' he should turn Protestant, or even Turk.

Hor. I have often admired at the great Force this senseless Piece of

Superstition is of; for I have seen great Reprobates and very loose

Fellows among the _Roman_ Catholicks, who stuck at no Manner of

Debauchery, and would often talk prophanely, that yet refused to eat

Flesh on a _Friday_, and could not be laugh'd out of their Folly; tho'

at the same Time I could see, that they were actually ashamed of it.

Cleo. No Set of People have so artfully play'd upon Mankind as the

Church of _Rome_. In the Use they have made of Scripture, they have

consulted all our Frailties; and in their own Interpretations of it,

most dextrously adapted themselves to the common Notions of all

Multitudes. They knew perfectly well, not only, that all Men are born

with the Fear of an invisible Cause, but likewise that it is more

natural, or, at least, that the rude and ignorant of our Species are

always more apt to suspect, that this invisible Cause is their Enemy,

than they are to think it to be their Friend, and will sooner believe

it to be an evil and malicious, than a good beneficent Being. To turn

this to their Advantage, they made Use of all their Skill and Cunning

to magnify the Devil, and cry up his Force and Subtlety, his

supernatural Art, his implacable Hatred to Mankind, and great

Influence over Human Affairs. All the strange Stories they have

spread, the monstrous Fables they have invented, and the gross Lies

they have maintain'd, of Spirits, of Witchcraft, and Apparitions,

never had any other Tendency than to manifest the Works of Satan, and

make Every body afraid of his Power and Stratagems at all Times, and

in all Places; which has been a prodigious Gain to them. They never

taught any Thing that contradicted Vulgar Opinions, and never gave

Men any Ideas of Heaven, that were not borrow'd from Something on

Earth. That Courts of Princes are not deem'd to be compleat without

Women, has advanced the _Virgin Mary_ to be Queen of Heaven. From the

Influence of Mothers, and the Authority they are known to exercise of

their Infants, they have drawn the most childish Conclusions to raise

Superstition; for to that Notion, and the great Honour which is every

where allow'd to be due to Parents, it has been owing, that the Mother

of God in the _Roman_ Communion has been all along more address'd and

pray'd to, than her Son; and of the Two She seems to be the more

venerable Person. All Patrons in ancient _Rome_ had their Clients, whom

the protected; and all Favourites of Princes have their Creatures,

whose Interests they espouse upon Occasion: This has produced the

Invocation of Saints and Angels; and that no Advocates might be

wanting in the Celestial Court on any Emergency, the Church has

provided, that there is no Town or Country, no Handicraft or

Profession, no Pain or Disease, Danger or Distress, but there is a

kind Saint for that particular Affair, whose peculiar Province is to

preside over and take Care of every Thing that relates to it; which

has made the Number of them equal with, if not superiour to that of

the Pagan Deities. She knew, that the Incredibility of Things is no

Obstacle to Faith among Multitudes; and that in believing of

Mysteries, Propositions will not be the less swallow'd for being

contradictory to Reason.

Hor. But I thought you was not for keeping Men in Ignorance.

Cleo. What I am for, is not the Question. Priests who would bear an

absolute Sway over the Laity, and live luxuriously at their Cost,

ought First to make them believe Implicitly: Whereas an honest Clergy,

that will teach Nothing concerning Religion, but what is consistent

with good Sense, and becoming a rational Creature to believe, ought to

deal uprightly with Men throughout the Whole, and not impose upon

their Understandings in one Point more than they do in another. From

the real Incomprehensibility of God, just Arguments must be drawn for

believing of Mysteries that surpass our Capacities. But when a Man has

good Reason to suspect, that he who instructed him in these Mysteries,

does not believe them himself, it must stagger and obstruct his Faith,

tho' he had no Scruples before, and the Things he had been made to

believe, are no Ways clashing with his Reason. It is not difficult for

a Protestant Divine to make a Man of Sense see the many Absurdities

that are taught by the Church of Rome, the little Claim which Popes

can lay to Infallibility, and the Priestcraft there is in what they

say of purgatory and all that belongs to it. But to persuade him

likewise, that the Gospel requires no Self-denial, nor any Thing that

is irksome to Nature, and that the Generality of the Clergy of _England_

are sincerely endeavouring, in their Lives and Doctrine, to imitate

the Apostles, as nearly as Human Frailty will let them, and is

consistent with the Difference of the Age and Manners between their

Time and ours; to persuade, I say, a Man of Sense, that these Things

are likewise true, would not be so easy a Task. By a Man of Sense, I

mean a Man likewise of some Knowledge, who, in the First Place, has

read the Bible, and believes the Scripture to be the sole Rule of

Faith; and, in the Second, is no Stranger to our Church, or any Thing

that is openly to be seen relating to her Clergy, especially the Heads

of them, the Bishops; such as their Palaces and Manner of Living;

their Translations, Revenues and Earthly Power, together with the

Worldly Honours, Precedency and other Privileges, which our Spiritual

Lords insist upon to be their Due.

Hor. I have often laugh'd my Self at Apostles in Coaches and Six; but

what must at that Rate the Men of Sense and Sincerity among the _Roman

Catholicks_ think of their Prelates, who live in much greater Splendour

and Luxury than ours? What must they think of the Cardinals and the

Pope himself?

Cleo. Think of them? What they please, so they dare not to open their

Lips against them, or any Thing which the Clergy are pleas'd to call

Sacred. In all _Roman Catholick_ Countries, you know, no Books or

Pamphlets may be publish'd, but what are Licensed; and no Man is

allow'd to divulge any Sentiments concerning Religion, that are not

entirely Orthodox; which in all Countries, so regulated, is a vast

Ease and an unspeakable Comfort to the Clergy of the establish'd

Church.

Hor. I never thought to hear you speak against the Liberty of the

Press.

Cleo. And you never will; for tho' Orthodoxy and the National Clergy

are always the Gainers by these Curbs and Prohibitions, yet Truth and

Religion are ever the Sufferers by them. But all prudent Men ought to

behave according to the Condition they are in, and the Principles as

well as Privileges they lay claim to. Reform'd Divines own themselves

to be fallible: They appeal to our Reason, and exhort us to peruse the

Scripture Ourselves. We live in a Country where the Press is open;

where all Men are at full Liberty to expose Error and Falshood, where

they can find them; and No body is debarr'd from Writing almost any

Thing, but Blasphemy and Treason. A Protestant Clergy ought always to

remember the Reasons, which their Predecessors alledg'd for separating

themselves from the _Roman_ Communion, and never to forget, that the

Haughtiness and Luxury of the Prelates, as well as the Covetousness,

the Insolence, and barefac'd Encroachments of the Clergy, were a

considerable Part of the Complaints against Popery. No equitable

Guides, that have open'd our Eyes to see the Frailties of others,

ought to expect from us, that in Regard to themselves we should keep

them shut close, and never look upon their Behaviour. The _Roman_

Pastors, who keep their flocks in the Dark, teach them blind

Obedience, and never vouchsafe to argue with 'em any more than if they

were real Sheep. They don't advise Men to read the Bible, but such

Books of Devotion as their Priests shall think proper for them; and

are so far from appealing to their Judgment, that they conjure them,

on Pain of Damnation, never to trust their Reason, but implicitly to

believe whatever the Church shall require of them.

Hor. You put me in Mind of Father _Canaye_, the Jesuit in St. _Evremond_.

No Reason! No Reason at all!

Cleo. Where the Clergy are possess'd of, and keep up this Authority

over the Laity, and the Secular Arm is at their Devotion, to punish

whom they condemn, they need not be nice or circumspect in their

Manner of Living; and no Pomp or Luxury will easily lessen them in the

Esteem of the Multitude. No Protestant Clergy have wrote better in

Defence of the Reformation than ours; but others have certainly gone

greater Lengths in it, as to Worship and Discipline in outward

Appearance. The Difference between the _Roman Catholicks_ and us seems

to be less irreconcilable, than it is between them and the Reformed

Churches of the united _Netherlands_ and _Switzerland_; and I am fully

persuaded, that the Mother Church despairs not of bringing back to her

Bosom this run-away Daughter of hers, and making this Island one Day

or other repay with Interest the Losses she has sustain'd by its long

Disobedience. Arguments alone will never keep out Popery; and _Great

Britain_ being once reconciled to the Church of _Rome_, would add such a

Weight to her Power, that it would not be difficult for her in a

little Time to reduce all the Rest of the Protestants by main Force,

and entirely to Triumph over what She calls the Northern Heresy.

Hor. We have very good Laws to secure us from the Usurpation of _Rome_;

and the Abbey Lands, that are in the Possession of the Laity, I

believe, are a better, I mean, a stronger Argument against the Return

of Popery, than ever will be shewn in Print.

Cleo. I believe so too; but it is not easy to determine, what

Difficulties and Discouragements true Politicks and never ceasing

Industry may not surmount in Time. The Church of _Rome_ is never without

Men of great Parts and Application; she entertains Numbers of them;

and there is no Government, without Exception, of which the true

Interest is so well understood, or so steadily pursued without

Interruption, as hers.

Hor. But why may not Protestants have Men of good Sense and Capacity

among them, as well as _Roman Catholicks_? Do not other Countries

produce Men of Genius as well as _Italy_?

Cleo. Perhaps they do; tho' none more. The _Italians_ are a subtle

People; and I believe, that consummate Knowledge in State Affairs, and

Worldly Wisdom are less precarious at _Rome_, than in any other Place

you can name. Men of uncommon Genius are not born every Day, no more

in _Italy_ than any where else; but when in other Countries a good

Politician goes off the Stage, either of Life or Business, it is often

seen that a Bungler succeeds him, who in a few Years does more Hurt to

the Nation, that the other had Time to do them good in a long

Administration. This never happens at _Rome_; and there is no Court in

the Universe so constantly supplied with able Managers and crafty

Statemen as hers: For how short soever the Lives of most Popes may be,

the Sacred College never dies. Tell me now pray, what unlikely Change,

what Improbability can you imagine, of which we have not Reason to

fear, that, if it be possible at all, it may be brought about by such

a Set of Men; when every one's private Interest, as well as that of

the Common Cause, are highly concern'd in it, and they are not stinted

in Time?

Hor. Assiduity and Patience, I know, will do strange Things, and

overcome great Obstacles. That the Church of _Rome_ is more diligent and

sollicitous to make Proselytes, than the Protestants generally are, I

have long observed.

Cleo. There is no common Cause among the Reformed: The Princes and

Laity of different Persuasions would have been firmly united long ago,

if the Clergy would have suffer'd it; but Divines, who differ, are

implacable, and never known to treat any Adversary with Temper or

Moderation; and it has never been seen yet, that Two Sects of

Christians did agree, and join heartily in one Interest, unless they

were oppress'd, or in immediate Danger of suffering by a common Enemy

to both. As soon as that is over, you always see their former

Animosities revive. If the Church of _Rome_ had no Hopes left, and given

over all Thoughts of ever bringing this Kingdom back within her Pales,

you would see the English Seminaries abroad neglected and dropt by

Degrees; which she now cultivates with the utmost Care: For it is from

them only, that She can be furnish'd with the proper Instruments to

keep Popery alive in _England_, and buoy up the drooping Spirits of the

distress'd _Catholicks_, among the many Hardships and Discouragements,

they labour under beyond the Rest of their Fellow-Subjects. Such

Offices as these, are every where best perform'd by Natives: Whatever

Persuasion People are of, if the National Church of their Country, be

not of their Religion, it is natural the them to wish it was; and that

all imaginable Care is taken in the English Seminaries to encourage,

and with the utmost Skill to heighten and encrease this Natural Desire

in those under their Care, no Man can doubt who considers the

Abilities of the Tutors that are employ'd in them, and the vast

Advantage the Reduction of _Great Britain_ would be to the See of _Rome_.

Whilst those Colleges are constant supply'd with _English_ and _Irish_

Youth, the Popish Interest can never die in this Realm, nor the Church

of _Rome_ want insinuating Priests, or hearty Zealots, that will act any

part, put on any Disguise, and run any Risque for their Cause, either

in Strengthening the _Roman Catholicks_ that are among us in their

Faith, or seducing Protestants from theirs. No Foreigners could do us

half the Mischief. People love their own Language from the same

Motives as they love their Country; and there are no Priests or

Clergy, whom Men will sooner hearken to and confide in, than such, as

take great Pains and express an uncommon Zeal in their Function, at

the same Time that they exercise it at the Hazard of their Liberty or

their Lives. The Church of _Rome_ has fit Tools for every Work and every

Purpose; and no other Power upon Earth has such a Number of Creatures

to serve it, nor such a Fund to reward them when they do. That the

Protestant Interest lost Ground soon after it was well establish'd,

and is still declining more and more every Day, is undeniable. To one

_Roman Catholick_, that is converted to the Reform'd Religion, Ten

Protestants turn Papists, among the highest Quality as well as the

Vulgar. What can be the Reason of this Change? What is it that this

Evil ought to be imputed to?

Hor. Either the Church of _Rome_ is grown more vigilant and mindful of

her Cause since the Reformation, than She was in _Luther's_ Days, or the

Protestants are become more negligent and careless of theirs.

Cleo. I believe both to be true, but especially the latter; for if the

Maxims, that were most instrumental in bringing about the Reformation,

had been continued, they certainly would have prevented, at least in a

great Measure, not only this Evil, but likewise another, which is

worse, I mean the Growth of Irreligion and Impiety: Nay, I don't

question but the same Maxims, if they were to be tried again would

have that Effect still.

Hor. This is a fine Secret, and what, I dare say, the Clergy would be

glad to know. Pray, which are those Maxims.

Cleo. The Sanctity of Manners and exemplary Lives of the Reformers,

their Application and unwearied Diligence in their Calling; their Zeal

for Religion, and Disregard of Wealth and Worldly Enjoyments, either

real or counterfeited, for that God only knows.

Hor. I did not expect this. The Bench of Bishops won't thank you for

your Prescription: They would call it an Attempt to cure the Patients

by blistering the Physicians.

Cleo. Those who would call it so, must be strange Protestant Divines.

Hor. I am sure, that some, if not most of them, would think the Remedy

worse than the Disease.

Cleo. Yet there is none equal to it, no Remedy so effectual, either to

cure us of those Evils, and put an entire Stop to, or to hinder and

obstruct the Encrease as well of Atheism and Prophaneness, as of

Popery and Superstition. And I defy all the Powers of Priestcraft to

name such another, a practicable Remedy, of which there is any

Probability, that it would go down or could be made use of in a

clear-sighted Age, and among a knowing People, that have a Sense of

Liberty, and refuse to be Priest-rid. It is amazing, that so many fine

Writers among the Clergy, so many Men of Parts and Erudition should

seem very earnestly to enquire into the Causes of Libertinism and

Infidelity, and never think on their own Conduct.

Hor. But they'll tell you, that you make the Doctrine of the Gospel

stricter than it really is; and I think so too; and that you take

several Things literally, that ought to be figuratively understood.

Cleo. When Words are plain and intelligible, and what is meant by them

in a literal sense is agreeable to the Tenour and the whole Scope of

the Book in which we meet with those Words, it is reasonable to think,

that they ought to be literally understood. But if, notwithstanding

this, there are others, who are of Opinion, that these Words are to be

taken in a figurative Sense, and this figurative Sense is more forced

than the literal, and likewise clashing with the Doctrine and the

Design of the Book, we have great Reason not to side with their

Opinion: But if it appears moreover, that those who contend for the

forced, figurative Sense, should be Gainers by it, if their Opinion

prevail'd, and it would bring them Profit, Honour, Pleasure, or Ease,

then we ought to suspect them to be partial, and the figurative Sense

is to be rejected.

Hor. I don't know what to make of you to Day. You have shewn the _Roman

Catholick_ Religion to be a bare-faced Imposture; and at the same Time

you seem to blame the _Protestants_ for having left it.

Cleo. I am very consistent with my Self. I have laid open to you the

Politicks, Penetration and Worldly Wisdom of the Church of _Rome_, and

the Want of them in the Reformers, who exposed the Frauds of their

Adversaries, without considering the Hardships and Difficulties, which

such a Discovery would entail upon their Successors. When they parted

with their Power, and gave up their Infallibility, they should have

foreseen the necessary Consequences of the Honesty and Candour. A

Reform'd Church, that will own she may err, must prepare for Heresies

and Schisms, look upon them as unavoidable, and never be angry with

those who dissent from her. They ought likewise to have known, that no

Divines, who will preach the Gospel in its Purity, and teach Nothing

but Apostolick Truths without Craft or Deceit, will ever be believ'd

long, if they appeal to Men's Reason, unless they will likewise lead,

or at least endeavour or seem to lead Apostolick Lives. In all Sects

and Schisms it has always been and will ever be observed, that the

Founders of them either are, or pretend to be Men of Piety and good

Lives; but as there never was a Principle of Morality that Men have

set out from, so strict yet, that in Tract of Time Human Nature has

not got the better of it, so the Successors of those Founders always

become more remiss by Degrees, and look out for Ways and Means to

render the Practice of their Doctrine, or the Exercise of their

Function, more comfortable and commodious: And all Persuasions have

ever lost Ground, and been sunk in their Reputation in proportion, as

the Teachers of them have relax'd their Manners. No Doctrine ever

prevail'd or got any Advantage over the establish'd Religion in any

Country, that was not accompanied with a real Austerity of Life, or a

Pretence at least to a stricter Morality, and greater Forbearance,

than was generally to be seen in the National Church, at the Time in

which the Doctrine was advanced. These are eternal Truths, that must

flow from the Fabrick, the very Essence of Human Nature. Therefore the

Clergy may write and preach as they please: They may have all the

Skill and Learning that Mortals can be possess'd of, and all the

assistance into the Bargain, that the secular Power can give them in a

free Nation, they will never be able long to keep up their Credit with

a mixed Multitude, if no Show is made of Self-denial, and they will

totally neglect those Means, without which that Credit was never

acquired.

The Third Dialogue Between _Horatio_ and _Cleomenes_.

Horatio. Tho' it is but Two Days ago that I troubled you almost a

whole Afternoon, I am come again to spend the Remainder of this, and

sup with you, if you are at Leisure.

Cleo. This is exceeding kind. I am no Ways engaged; and you give me a

vast Deal of Pleasure.

Hor. The more I have thought and reflected on what you said of Honour

last _Tuesday_, the more I have perceiv'd and felt the Truth of it in

Spight of my Teeth. But I shall never dare to speak of so wretched an

Origin.

Cleo. The Beginning of all Things relating to Human Affairs was ever

small and mean: Man himself was made of a Lump of Earth. Why should we

be ashamed of this? What could be meaner than the Origin of Ancient

_Rome_? Yet her own Historians, proud as they were, scrupled not to

mention it, after she was arrived at the Height of her Glory, and

become a Goddess, _Dea Roma_, to whom Divine Honours were paid

throughout the Empire, and a stately Temple was erected within her own

Walls.

Hor. I have often wonder'd at that _Dea Roma_, and her Statues

resembling those of _Pallas_. What could they pretend her Divinity to

consist in?

Cleo. In her vast Power, which every Freeman had the Privilege to

imagine, he had a Share in.

Hor. What a _Bizar_, what a monstrous Humour must it have been, that

could make a wife People suppose that to be a Goddess, which they knew

to be a City!

Cleo. Nothing in the Universe, but the Pride of the Citizens. But I

don't think, that the Humour, which you seem to be so much astonish'd

at, is altogether worn off yet. In Poetry, Painting and Sculpture, you

see Rivers, Towns, and Countries continue to be represented under the

Images of Men and Women as much as ever. Look upon the Marble Figures

about the Pedestal of Queen _Anne's_ Statue at St. _Paul's_.

Hor. But No body is so silly as to worship them.

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