Mr. SHASTEEN. Clifton [spelling] C-l-i-f-t-o-n.
Mr. JENNER. M is your initial?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Shasteen. S-h-a-s-t-e-e-n.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You live at 2214 Fairfax in Irving, Tex. As I understand
it, you are the owner and operator of Clifton's Barbershop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. At 1321 South Storey in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. You are a native of Dallas, are you?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Oh, I've been here about 20 years.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's good enough and you are married and have a
family and live in Irving, Tex., as indicated?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I understand that in the course of your looking at
television on the 22d of November 1963, there occurred to you upon
seeing some of the people shown on the screen that you had rendered
some tonsorial services to Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I'll tell you just as near as I can remember that
day--what happened is the TV shop next to me, in other words, about two
doors down----
Mr. JENNER. Next to your business?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I heard it over the radio and went to the house at
noon and that was all you could see on television, just the flashing,
but there wasn't anything definite, so I went back to the shop and as I
went back to the shop this fellow in the TV shop said, "Why don't you
come in and get a TV set and set it up in your shop in there and watch
it?" So, I went in and got a TV set and the name didn't mean anything
to me when they first mentioned the name.
Mr. JENNER. The name Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. SHASTEEN. It didn't mean a thing, but later on in the evening
when we began to see the pictures, you know, after they had him over
here--the first I remember seeing him to recognize that I had saw the
face before was about--over there around 5 o'clock, when I saw him over
at the jail or something and I seen him when they come out there and
when he looked toward the cameras.
I didn't say anything to anybody. I had before told them, you know,
what I said was just a gag--I said, "You can't tell. That guy might
live here in Irving." You know how guys pop off or something, but I
didn't know a thing about it. I was just going on, but anyhow, when
that come on there, there was several in the shop and so I decided when
I saw his picture--I remembered him coming in the shop and I just knew
that. It finally dawned on me where I had saw him. I knew where he
lived. Actually, I knew where the station wagon was that was parked,
that I saw him and this lady in, so I just took out of the shop and
told the boy, I said, "I'm going to run to the house and I'll be back
in a minute."
So, I drove up there and my lands of living, you couldn't get within
4 blocks of that house, and knew then I was not mistaken, that that
was the guy that came in my barber shop, and when I came back to the
shop--when I got back to the shop somebody else had already seen me up
there and said they saw Cliff up there and everybody in that community
knows me. When we got back to the shop, then, we began to talk about
it. All three of the barbers in there have cut his hair, but I cut it
more, I guess, than the rest of them did. I think the boy on the front
chair cut it once and the boy in the middle chair cut it a couple of
times, but I think I cut his hair three or four times. I don't know
just exactly because since then--I have backed up and looked at it and
tried to remember the dates he was in there and tried to tell you just
the way it was--when he would come in, he was always disgruntled, and
the only time I ever saw him smile--he had on a pair of yellow house
shoes and I never saw any like them before.
Mr. JENNER. Sneakers?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; slip-ons, only they were a little heavy--they were
just a little heavier than just a common house shoe, and I admired them
and I said, "Them looks expensive," and he said, "They are not."
He said, "I gave a dollar and a half for them." I said, "My goodness,
where did you get a pair of house shoes for a dollar and a half?" And
he said, "Down in Old Mexico."
Mr. JENNER. Down in Old Mexico?
Mr. SHASTEEN. And I said, "Man, I'd like to have a pair of them because
I have to wear a shoe built up," you see and they were heavy enough
that I could build that shoe up and he said, "Well, I'll get you a
pair the next time I'm down there," and that is the only time he ever
was nice and polite--in the conversation, any time anything would come
up--anybody else would talk to him, he was just disgruntled.
I remember him particularly one time. The barber in the front chair,
one Saturday morning, he cut his hair. You know, the barber chair is
only so far from the sink, but there's not room for two men between
that and the sink. Well, the fellow on the front chair cut his hair
and he gets up and goes back in the middle chair and gets between the
barber and his bench back there and stands back behind and combs his
hair.
In other words, what he was trying to do--fixing to or wanting to,
he just pushed him out. He was just rude and we all remembered that
time, because this boy that works for me that's here, he is more or
less highstrung type of guy. I mean he is a real good fellow but you
wouldn't want to push him too far and I remembered that real well, and
I saw him--the only time I remember seeing him, you know, other than
just going in the grocery store across the street, Mr. Hutchison's
food market, and I was down at the drugstore one night, down at
Williamsburg's and he was in there.
Mr. JENNER. Williamsburg's--that's in Irving?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; it's down on Rock Island and Rogers Road. And, why I
remembered seeing him in there, I knew I couldn't understand his wife,
and that was before--I believe it was before she had her baby. The best
I remember she was pregnant.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen her before?
Mr. SHASTEEN. That's the only time I had ever saw her, that I remember.
You know, she may have come to the grocery store with him but I didn't
pay any attention. Sometimes there were two women with him and I
assumed it was Mrs. Paine, but Mrs. Paine has never been in the shop.
I have saw her around, you know, like my brother-in-law used to live
right across the street from her and the fellow that lives right on the
corner and I'm trying to think of his name----
Mr. JENNER. On the fifth?
Mr. SHASTEEN. And Westbrook--that old gentleman, I knew him for years,
but I don't never call his name and I can't think of it now to save my
neck. I would know it if I hear it called, but anyhow, you know, I've
stopped by and chatted with him a lot of times in the daytime. I've got
some rent houses, you know, and I would get out of the shop and I would
go by and see them and I would come by this fellow's house and I would
stop there and I saw Mrs. Paine out in the yard and I know all of the
people that live around there, nearly, around the Paine's house, but I
never had any connection with Mrs. Paine or Mr. Paine.
Them is the things there about Oswald that I personally, you know, that
I ever paid any attention to and one other time--when the boy in the
middle chair cut his hair. It was on Friday night and it was about 5
or 10 minutes to 7, the best I remember. Now, why I am saying this is
the fact that I was going to a football game. My shop has a door in the
back and then there is a storage room on one side and a restroom on
the other, but when you open the two doors, you see, there is just a
narrow place and it kind of makes it private back there, and I change
clothes back there, and I had the door but, as he came in the front
door, I started out--I went out the back. The next morning this boy
that works in the middle chair--he didn't go to the football game, but
the boy that works there, and I slipped off and went to the football
game--business had kind of slowed up about that time. But anyhow, he
really was inquisitive as to where I went. He wanted to know where I
was going and what I was going to do--he asked this guy cutting his
hair. You see, he didn't think nothing about it then. He just thought
maybe he wanted me to cut his hair and that is the only time there.
Of course, there is some other things that happened but I could kick my
own self for. There was a 14-year-old boy come in with him a few times,
and--not every time, but I know he has been in there as much as two or
three times with him, but he never did say nothing until about 3 or 4
days before this incident happened. This kid was in the shop----
Mr. JENNER. Three or four days before November 22?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right. This boy was in the shop and the boy in the front
chair was cutting his hair, and you know how men are talking, and there
is this old saying, "If you haven't heard this you haven't been around
barbershops." The guys are always talking about we spend too much money
overseas and we give away this and we give away that and you know, just
the general consumption of the whole country and how everything is
going. They talk that in the barbershop and you hear it until you want
to run.
Mr. JENNER. That's right, they solve all the problems of the world.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; but anyhow, there was several guys in there and they
were talking one evening and this kid was in there, and the best I
remember, it must have been--well, some of the guys that were in there
work the night shift, and I think they go to work around 3:30 or 4
o'clock, so, I know it was around 3 or 2:30, or 3.
Mr. JENNER. In the afternoon?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; and this kid was in here.
Mr. JENNER. Were you there?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; what I am saying is--after they were doing all this
talking and the kid hadn't opened his mouth and the fellow on the front
chair was cutting his hair and he is a quiet guy and he never says
nothing about politics in no shape, form, or fashion. However, I try to
keep all of us barbers out of politics because it isn't good business
when you get politics in there you get out of the barber business
and all this talk was going on and I could tell he was listening and
directly he said, "I can tell you when you will stop all of this greed
and everything."
And I said, "What do you mean, son?" And, he said, "Well, when you have
one leader over everyone else." And, he said, leader--he didn't just
say country. I remember that--how he said it. And, I said, "What do you
mean 'one leader'"? And he said, "Well, when you don't have a leader in
every little old country and them trying to scramble with one another"
and he said, "Another thing, like you--you own the shop and these other
fellows work for you and you get part of their money and he said when
everybody has a say, when one man is not allowed to hog up the whole
country and let another man starve," he says "that's when we are going
to quit having wars and all this junk." And I said, "Where in the world
did you get that kind of stuff?"
He never did answer me, but it made me so--if I knew then what I know
now, I would probably have took him and bought him a steak to try to
quiz him and find out who it was and where he got all of that. Instead,
it made me mad, just to be honest about it--I would like to have took
one of them razor straps and tore him up. If he had been a 14-year-old
boy of mine that said a thing like that he would have got it, but he
got up and left the shop and I haven't heard him since, and I didn't
find out where he lived, who he was or nothing. The anger in him saying
that is where I did it, and I--the guy that talks like that, I know
one thing I should, as Mr. Odum told me, I should have found out where
he lived, where he went to school or something, but I didn't do it. It
just made me so mad the thing I wanted him to do was get out of there.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Odum is the FBI agent?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, he's one of them, and I know Mr. Odum--he came
back. He wasn't the first one that came to talk to me, but he has come
back several times and I met him several times--I don't know. I will
be honest with you--I don't--I know how to call him at any time, but
that's where your old temper gets away with you. I realize now that I
should have just, when the kid said that, instead of saying anything
back to him--I didn't have to agree with him, but I could have found
out where he lived, what he did and that kind of thing, but you know
it had to take something like this before it wakes up some of us and I
never give it a thought.
Just like Oswald--I owned the shop and naturally I wanted to see every
head of hair come in there that will, but the thing of it is--a guy
like Oswald and that kid--you just disagree with them so much that you
hope they don't ever come back and that's the attitude I felt, but I
know I was wrong about it, but it's done and there ain't nothing I can
do about it.
I just have watched and watched and I don't know a soul to ask, because
Oswald is dead and he's the only one I ever saw that kid with--he is
the only one that I ever saw that kid with and I don't remember seeing
him since that time--I don't know who he was any more than nothing.
Mr. JENNER. How many times--you personally, now, without someone else
having told you the boy was in the shop, how many times do you recall
when he was in your shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. The 14-year-old boy?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Three times--I know. In other words, I know he came with
Oswald the night I'm talking about when he wanted to know where I was
going and I went to the back door. You see, I seen them coming in and I
did hurry to get out the back door.
Mr. JENNER. The boy came in?
Mr. SHASTEEN. He was with him that night and he was with him one other
time.
Mr. JENNER. Can you fix that particular time?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was a couple of weeks and maybe 3 weeks before
that night.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me--the night you say you were going out to the
football game--when was that?
Mr. SHASTEEN. It was Friday night and this was the last time Oswald
came in and I'm just saying this as near as I think, but I think it
was--in other words--was it Thursday or Friday that the President was
killed?
Mr. JENNER. Friday the 22d.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Well, it was probably 2 weeks before that.
Mr. JENNER. Two weeks before that?
Mr. SHASTEEN. And it was about Monday night before that when the
kid--it could be a week's difference there, but I don't think it is.
Mr. JENNER. The 22d was on a Friday. This football game incident
occurred, you think, 2 weeks prior?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That would be the evening of the 8th of November?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I believe that's right, just as near right as I can get
it.
Mr. JENNER. That was a high school football game on Friday night, as I
remember?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; like I say, it could have possibly been 3 weeks
prior to that, but I'm almost sure it wasn't. I'm so nearly sure--I
would say it was almost for sure.
Mr. JENNER. It could possibly have been the 1st of November but you are
pretty sure that it was the 8th?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I just nearly knew it was the 8th, I think it was the 8th
and I'll tell you why I think it was the 8th.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. SHASTEEN. The fact is, he never did want his hair cut--he always
wanted it to look like it was about a week old when he cut it and he
got a haircut about every 2 weeks, and I don't think he ever went over
2 weeks--he either got a haircut on Friday night or Saturday morning,
and in running that back through my mind, and I thought about it then
and I have since.
Mr. JENNER. And on that occasion was this 14-year-old boy with him?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the occasion when you were sneaking out to the
football game?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you did see him and you did see the 14-year-old boy on
that occasion?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Which of your employees cut his hair that night, if you
know of your own knowledge.
Mr. SHASTEEN. Buddy Lowe, the one that just works part time.
Mr. JENNER. The new man--the middle chair?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes, and the only thing--he had told me the next morning,
you know, about it and I wondered why I didn't think something about
the character, but the next morning, he said, "Man, that guy was really
inquisitive about where you were going last night." That guy that come
in with him. Of course, we don't know his name from Adam and we have
lots of customers that we don't know their names.
Mr. JENNER. When he came in with the 14-year-old boy, did the
14-year-old boy get his hair cut at the same time?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. He just sat in the shop?
Mr. SHASTEEN. He just come with him. I assumed, and I'm just saying
this because I haven't ever saw him before and never saw him other than
with Oswald, that he doesn't live in Irving.
Mr. JENNER. He did not?
Mr. SHASTEEN. I don't believe the boy lived there, because, you know,
in other words--it has been in the back of my mind and the last--and
when I see schoolkids. I'm always kind of wondering if I'm ever going
to see him again and I never, had never saw that kid since.
Mr. JENNER. You have never seen that boy since?
Mr. SHASTEEN. No.
Mr. JENNER. Now, normally, this man you have in mind has his hair cut
every 2 weeks?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Either on Friday night or on Saturday morning?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And there were occasions when you personally cut his hair?
Mr. SHASTEEN. Yes; I think I cut it--I know of three times that I cut
it and I might have cut it more than that, but I don't think that I did
because you just can't hardly forget a guy like that or you can't miss
knowing him when he is in your chair.
Mr. JENNER. You cut his hair three times and your other barbers in your
shop, your employees, also cut his hair, is that right?
Mr. SHASTEEN. That's right.