Mr. GRAEF. Then, we'll say his personality began to come out. In
the moving around the darkroom, the way you have to be congenial,
cooperative in turning the light on and off as the various stages of
the work progress, you may be developing film and someone may be coming
out of one of our rooms and need the light on and there has to be a
certain amount of give and take in these relationships and it began to
become evident--some of the passages--passageways through our darkroom
aren't particularly wide and everyone has learned to manage. You
can't--you can pass one another, but not without each of you sort of
squeezing by a little bit as you go, and it began to be evident that he
wasn't congenial or cooperative in working with the rest of the people
and moving about the darkroom and so forth.
Let me see, there was an incident about a Russian newspaper deal--I
was working at my desk one time and I looked over and it was probably
a slack time in our business, and I looked over and Lee was reading a
newspaper, and I could see--it was from a distance of about 8 to 10
feet, I suppose, something like that, and it was just far enough away
that I could see it was not a usual newspaper, and I asked him what he
was reading, and he said, "A Russian newspaper." I said, "A what?" And
he said, "A Russian newspaper." I said, "Let's see it, and he brought
it over and I said something like "What is the action on this?" And
he said, "I studied Russian in Korea." This fit in with his previous
statement when we employed him about being in Korea, when he was a
marine, and he said, "I like to keep up--keep in practice being able
to read the Russian language and study it or something to that effect,
and I said, "Well, Lee, I wouldn't bring anything like that down here
again, because some people might not take kindly to your reading
anything like that."
Mr. JENNER. Did you ask him the source of this newspaper?
Mr. GRAEF. No; no.
Mr. JENNER. Whether it was printed in Russia or whether he had
subscribed to it?
Mr. GRAEF. It seems to me it was the "Crocodile." Now, it might not
have been, but it just seems to me at the time that it was, but, of
course, that too didn't seem particularly odd to me because a great
many people in the country are studying that language these days and
the fact that he had been a marine and been in Korea, according to the
report, it seemed reasonably plausible that he would have learned that
language, or studied it and to me, certainly, of course, I know how
people are and that there might be some--he might be making trouble for
himself by causing suspicion and so forth, by having that newspaper or
at least running around with it, flaunting it, we'll say.
Mr. JENNER. When did this occur with respect to his period of
employment--this incident?
Mr. GRAEF. I can't really say for sure, but it must have been about the
fourth or fifth month that he was there.
Mr. JENNER. Was it a factor in his ultimate discharge?
Mr. GRAEF. Let me say that didn't help. Taken with the other--his
personality, his not being able to do the job the way he should--when
I say, "His personality," I mean the friction between the other
employees. I didn't--it didn't actually weigh heavily, but it didn't
do his case any good, let's put it that way. I didn't fire him
specifically because he had the newspaper in his hand.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I put words in your mouth that he was discharged?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; he was discharged.
Mr. JENNER. Did you discuss this with him?
Mr. GRAEF. I did.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about that, please?
Mr. GRAEF. His record, as all this has brought out was--adding up to
where he was not a desirable employee. His relationships with other
employees had reached the point where no one that I know of was
really friendly or liked him. His work as we progressed into the more
intricate details of our production, didn't improve and it began to be
evident after all the training that we had given up to this point that
now that he was in a position where he should be able to produce jobs,
actually he was not able to do so, and after a reasonable----
Mr. JENNER. Was there ever any thought in your mind as to his ability
ultimately to be able to do so?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I reached the opinion that he would not have--he would
never be the kind of an employee that I was looking for, giving him
every chance, you can make a mistake on one job or two jobs, and you
always feel like you must--"Let's try it one more time," and this was
my thought, because after all, there had been several months passed
where we had brought him up to this point and I feel we gave him every
chance or tried to give him every chance to make a success, and still
he was falling down and making these mistakes--sizing errors--and
camerawork.
When he had to make these things over, he would be mad at himself. He
would go back and shoot it again, but it is obvious that he was taking
twice as long when these things happened to produce one job because he
was having to do the whole thing over again to get it right, that it
couldn't be tolerated for much longer.
About this time, I think it was in April, we had a fluctuation in
business--it dropped and I thought, "Well, this is the time to let Lee
Harvey Oswald--to let him go," so I called him back into the darkroom
one day and I said, "Lee, business is"----
Mr. JENNER. When you say this conversation took place in the darkroom,
was the room dark?
Mr. GRAEF. There were dim red lights.
Mr. JENNER. Why did you call him back in the darkroom rather than some
other place?
Mr. GRAEF. At the time it was the--I didn't want to embarrass the boy.
Mr. JENNER. This was a private talk?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Out of the presence of anyone other than yourself and
Oswald?
Mr. GRAEF. Out of the presence of anyone else--yes.
Mr. JENNER. And that was one of the reasons for your calling him back
there?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I don't have a private office. My desk is with the
other people in the production of work, and I don't have any private
facilities where I can talk to someone, and back in the corner of the
darkroom, it is illuminated by red lights.
Mr. JENNER. Are these infrared lights? Is that what you mean?
Mr. GRAEF. No; they are just red neon lights that provide dim
illumination, but at this particular spot in the darkroom, I can see
when anyone is within 15 or 20 feet of me, and, of course, I could
lower my voice and not embarrass him when I released him, so I said,
"Lee, come on back, I would like to talk to you." So, we went back, and
I said, "Lee, I think this is as good a time as any to cut it short."
I said, "Business is pretty slow at this time, but the point is that
you haven't been turning the work out like you should. There has been
friction with other people," and so on.
Mr. JENNER. What did he say when you said that?
Mr. GRAEF. Nothing. And I said, "This is, I think, the best time to
just make a break of it." I believe I gave him a few days, and I said,
"Feel free, of course, to make any calls of the Texas Employment
Commission where you came from originally," and I told him, "I think
you tried to do the work, but I just don't think that you have the
qualities for doing the work that we need."
And, there was no outburst on his part. He took this the whole time
looking at the floor, I believe, and after I was through, he said,
"Well, thank you." And he turned around and walked off.
Mr. JENNER. Have you had occasion in your career to discharge other
employees?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And recalling the reaction of other employees, could you
tell us your present view or opinion as to your experience--comparing
your experience with the discharge of Lee Harvey Oswald with the
discharge of other employees--was it usual and normal?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I think it was just about the usual. He might have been
perhaps a shade more quiet. There were no questions asked about why I
thought he wasn't qualified.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think he was aware of it?
Mr. GRAEF. I think he was aware of it; yes.
Mr. JENNER. No outbursts of any kind?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Anything said about what might happen if he sought
references in any future employment?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I told him--I volunteered the information. I said,
"Lee, if there is another job that you find, I'll be glad to give
you a recommendation, a good recommendation," because--I told him,
"I think you have tried," and I think he had. It would have been, of
course, with reservations--any new employer that had called me for a
recommendation, I would have had to say something about his relations
with other employees.
Mr. JENNER. And that would have been somewhat negative?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct; but he did try to become a worker. It wasn't
that he wasn't industrious--he was not lazy. He, to the best of his
ability, tried but the ability was not there.
Mr. JENNER. Now, I take it then from your recital that his discharge
was for the reasons you have given and not because of any past history
that you discovered with respect to him?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. And, throughout all of this employment, you had no
information with regard to his past history other than you have related
to us?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Does Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall do any highly secret work of
any character or highly confidential work?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes, yes; we do some work for, I think, the Army Map
Service. We do a certain type of work for the Engineers, I believe, but
I couldn't be sure about that.
Mr. JENNER. Is that in your department or under your supervision or
direction?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Would he have had any contact with that?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did there come to your attention any scuttlebutt among
employees as to any past history of his?
Mr. GRAEF. No; I think if it had, I would have in fact--I am very
positive I would have investigated that.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of the reports to you, which you have detailed to
me, include anything with regard to any political theories or arguments
or positions that he took as with respect to other employees?
Mr. GRAEF. No; none. None that came to my attention. There was never
any political conversations that I heard about him or between him, or
that I heard him talking with the people or anything like that.
Mr. JENNER. I think I have no more questions. I would like to put,
however, the general question that I do put in all these depositions.
Is there anything that might occur to you that I have not stimulated
to ask you but that you think--any incident that occurred or any
circumstance that you think might possibly be of help to the Commission
in their investigation of this man and of the overall incident we are
investigating?
Mr. GRAEF. No; I really don't think so. Of course, the whole thing is
just a tragic, unbelievable thing.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GRAEF. That you rub shoulders with someone who did such a thing is
just fantastic.
Mr. JENNER. If he did it?
Mr. GRAEF. It's just unbelievable--it's still hard to believe that you
were in such close contact with anyone that took part in the events.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is there anything in my off-the-record discussion
we have had, and there have been substantially none, that took place
during that interlude that I have failed to bring out?
Mr. GRAEF. I might add this--I'll let you repeat that question in a
moment.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. GRAEF. This thought occurred--I was trying to think a moment ago
what I was going to do, because there was something that I wanted to
make mention of for what it's worth, is that at this point during his
employment with us, he was very anxious for overtime work.
Mr. JENNER. Is this the 4- or 5-month period you are talking about now?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; that's correct, which if I may assume, he needed the
money. It was invariably Friday afternoon--and Saturday, of course, is
an overtime day to us and quite frequently we run Saturday and Saturday
work we do at time and a half, which comes into play, and in fact,
invariably Friday afternoon he would volunteer and ask if we needed him
the next day. Then, unfortunately, of course, as I have mentioned, his
work didn't come up to the quality that we needed so it was very, very
seldom that we ever brought him in unless we were in a real bad--had an
urgent work that absolutely had to go, but he desperately wanted to be
called in on Saturday for overtime work.
Mr. JENNER. Did any of his work, or was there any occasion when his
ability to operate an automobile arose?
Mr. GRAEF. No; as far as I know, he never had one.
Mr. JENNER. And there was no occasion in his work when he might have
been called upon to drive an automobile?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. So, you have no impression--I gather--as to whether he
could or could not drive an automobile or how well he might do so?
Mr. GRAEF. No. The only impression that I have is that he rode the bus
almost everywhere.
I know--I'm pretty sure he did not have a car and he used to ride the
bus.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibits 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456,
and ask you to examine those and tell me if the man who is depicted in
those photographs bears any similarity or likeness to the man you knew
as Lee Harvey Oswald? You might spread them out and it would give you a
better view.
Mr. GRAEF. Very slight; but to anyone who knew Lee, they would
immediately say "No."
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him attired in the fashion that the man
shown on those photographs is attired?
Mr. GRAEF. No; I don't think I ever did. Now, toward the end of his
employment, most of the time he used to wear a white T-shirt to work. I
think he might have had a dark jacket over it.
Mr. JENNER. A zipper jacket--lightweight?
Mr. GRAEF. Something perhaps--but it was rather dark, I think, but not
like this.
Mr. JENNER. Is there in any discussion we have had possibly off the
record which you regard as inconsistent with any testimony you have
given here, and if so, what?
Mr. GRAEF. Like what, for example? Now, when you say "inconsistent with
any testimony," what do you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Well, for example, that you might have said off the record
that you were uncertain as to whether--when you first interviewed him
he was, in fact, with a suit coat with a shirt and tie, whereas, when I
asked you on the record you were pretty firm about that sort of thing?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I am pretty firm. No, no; all of this testimony that I
have given you is factual and true.
Mr. JENNER. There is nothing you have said on the record that is
inconsistent with anything you have said off the record?
Mr. GRAEF. No--it hasn't been--anything that I have said has been an
opinion or formulations--it has just been--it is just strictly as I
remember it.
Mr. JENNER. And to your best recollection, I have brought everything
that was said off the record that is pertinent here and have got it on
the record.
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Davis, do you have any questions?
Mr. DAVIS. No.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. GRAEF. Well, you are certainly welcome.
Mr. JENNER. You have a right to read your deposition, if you wish to,
or you may waive it. You have that right, and you may waive it if you
wish. The reporter will let you know one way or the other.
Mr. GRAEF. What is the machinations of getting a copy?
Mr. JENNER. When Miss Oliver has prepared a copy, you may call in and
find out from Mr. Sanders and come down and read it, as you see fit and
sign it.
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Or, you may waive that. If you wish a copy of your
testimony, you may obtain by arrangement with Miss Oliver. She will
furnish you one at whatever her usual prices are.
Mr. GRAEF. I think--I don't see any need for it--for signing it. There
it is.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Graef, as these reports reached you from your
employees, arousing your attention to the fact that some friction
had arisen and was continuing as between him and other employees,
what, if anything, did you do to acquaint yourself better with those
circumstances and in that connection, tell us whether you talked with
others, whether you talked with Lee--in general, just what did you do
in that connection?
Mr. GRAEF. The rumors of these flareups, we'll say, I heard about them
going back--we'll say, to some 3 months. He was employed with us for a
total of 6 months. For about the first 3 months he was in training and
it was only after this 3 months' period that he began to be in a close
association with the other employees, so about this time, we'll say,
the friction began between him and the other employees.
Now, several weeks went past--I'm sure--when these things came to pass
and when I heard about them, and this flareup that I witnessed, and I
don't know who was to blame, whether it was Lee or whether it was the
other fellow. I happened to be on the other side of the darkroom at the
time and the two people were both, as I recall, trying to develop film
in the same pan, and one was getting in the way of the other one, and
ordinarily there is no--we don't have any trouble about this. All the
jobs are rush, and you just make allowances and move over a little bit
and both of you get in there together.
This, I think, is what caused this particular thing, but Lee was quick
to--he had a chip on his shoulder, and he made--who spoke first, I
really don't recall, but somebody said something about, "How about
moving over a little bit?" And the other fellow said, "What do you
mean, I have been here first," and one thing led to another, but it
was over just about as quickly as it began, so this was the first time
that this became evident, but as I said, couldn't actually lay it as it
being Lee's fault. Now, these rumors come to me quite frequently. In
the whole department we may have 18 or 20 people.
Mr. JENNER. How many people work under you?
Mr. GRAEF. Directly under me, the day shift is seven or eight, and we
have a few on the night shift also. We work quite close to this other
department--which does photographic work also, and we have a sink on
our side for camera work and then there is a developing sink back to
back, at which this other department develops their work.
Mr. JENNER. What do they do?
Mr. GRAEF. Setting type photographically. So, out of these many
people, some of them are more prone to carry tales and others, of
course, and you have to weigh the evidence, we'll say, and some of the
people that had come to me during this time and just mentioned, or
we'll say, scuttlebutt that went around about Lee being hard to get
along with, where, in fact, some of the people are hard to get along
with themselves, so you just had to more or less try to get along
with everyone. We all have to do that and it wasn't until this scene
happened that I saw how Lee's temper worked, but the--the overwhelming
mass of evidence--everyone it seemed no one liked him.
Mr. JENNER. He had no friends?
Mr. GRAEF. No friends.
Mr. JENNER. And he didn't appear to you to seek to cultivate any?
Mr. GRAEF. By this time, you see, this 6 months had elapsed and at this
time work was suffering and he at this time--it was definite that he
had no friends. Everyone couldn't be wrong, and so all of this evidence
weighed against the decision to keep him on as an employee.
Mr. JENNER. It culminated in his discharge.
Mr. GRAEF. In his dismissal?
Mr. JENNER. All right, I guess that's about it. Thank you.
Mr. GRAEF. Well, I hope I have been of whatever help I have been.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry to inconvenience you in this matter.
Mr. GRAEF. If I can be of further assistance, please call me and I will
be glad to do what I can.
Mr. JENNER. All right, thank you very much.