Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, did he have a tie?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. He did have a tie?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I'm pretty certain he had a tie.
Mr. JENNER. He gave you a reasonably fair impression?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. At first blush?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--he came in and I met him in the outer
office, and we sat down in the outer office.
Mr. JENNER. I take it you had never seen this man before?
Mr. GRAEF. No; that's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Had you ever heard of him before?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Did anything occur during the course of that interview
which triggered any thought in your mind that you might have, or could
have heard about him before?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. As an individual?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. He remained throughout a complete stranger except to the
extent of your questioning, which elicited some knowledge of him?
Mr. GRAEF. That's right. He was at that time a complete stranger. I
had never seen him before or heard of him before. He was just another
applicant for a job, is what it amounted to.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. GRAEF. So, we sat down and he gave me the card and he told me
his name was Lee Harvey Oswald, and we went through the normal job
interview that we give most young men. I know--I don't, of course,
remember--because of the time it has been, the exact extent of our
whole conversation, but I do remember various phases of it.
Mr. JENNER. Reconstruct it to the extent that you can and avoid to
the extent you can assumption--that something must have happened and
finally give us, to the best of your ability, what you do recall, even
though you don't recall it on the button, so to speak.
Mr. GRAEF. Well, certain parts of it I remember almost word for word,
and then, of course, other, I think less important parts, I have
forgotten completely. I do remember that--I believe that Mrs. Latham in
the Texas Employment Agency--at the time that she called me, she said
that he had recently been discharged from the Marines.
When he came in, I found this--that I was just slightly embarrassed
that I had forgotten it, and among the other duties, of course--these
things will happen, and when he sat down and introduced himself as Lee
Harvey Oswald, I asked him where his last position was, and he said,
"The Marines," and I recovered slightly, remembering that I had already
been told this and, to cover up my embarrassment slightly, I laughed
and I said, "Oh, yes."
I said, "Honorably discharged, of course," as a joke, and he said, "Oh,
yes," and we went on with other facts of the interview. I remember
him--I don't believe he gave me an address. I think he said it was just
temporary where he was staying, or something to that effect. I also
believe at the time he told me he had a wife and a child or a child
coming. I don't remember exactly about that, because I, of course--any
employer is looking for someone dependable and a family man offers
perhaps a little more dependability, needing a position, than a single
person.
So, that I think is about--I think I did ask him where--when he
mentioned the Marines, where he had served, and I believe he told
me Korea, and I didn't go into it any further. I felt reasonably
sure because he had come through the Texas Employment Commission--I
didn't even think of checking on his honorable discharge--honorable
or dishonorable or questionable discharge. I somehow had just assumed
being through a State agency, that they perhaps had a much larger
file on him, that my going into various details would just be going
over--plowing up ground again, so I just figured--I never even thought
about checking into his discharge or when he had been discharged.
I think he had been discharged sometime prior to this--I don't at
the moment remember exactly when he got out of the Marines or was
discharged, but the impression that was left with me and I suppose he
told this to Mrs. Latham--was that it had been a very recent thing,
because I recall that that's what she told me, and that's what he told
me when he came to me--when I asked him.
Mr. JENNER. That it had been very recent?
Mr. GRAEF. Oh, yes; it had been very recent, because when I asked him
about his last employment he said, "The Marines," he had just gotten
out of the Marines, and then I recovered, you know, and said, "Oh,
yes," because Louise Latham had already told me this. At any rate, he
seemed the applicant with the best chance of success that had been sent
over.
Mr. JENNER. Would you go back a little bit?
Mr. GRAEF. Certainly.
Mr. JENNER. What inquiries did you make of him with respect to your
qualifications for this position--his prior experience, if any?
Mr. GRAEF. None--none. I assumed that--now, he was sent over, if I
remember right--I was also told by this Mrs. Latham, something about
that he had perhaps some photographic experience in the Marines or
there was some--there was some quality there that helped. And I believe
it was that he had had a little bit of photograph experience in the
Marines that might be helpful. In other words, he was a little familiar
with the processing of film and so forth and, of course, this would add
a little weight to his becoming a successful employee.
Mr. JENNER. I take it from your recital up to this moment that you are
primarily interested at this point, having in mind the nature of the
business, that this man would embrace ultimately what you were looking
more for--let's say--general character, whether he seemed like a man
who was going to be in this community a while?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Whether he was sincerely interested in obtaining
employment that you expected to rely upon your teaching--I mean your
company--under your supervision and direction--the teaching and
training of this man for the position which you ultimately would seek
to fill.
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; very well put.
Mr. JENNER. And it might even have been that if this man had no
photographic experience whatsoever, but seemed--well, let's say clean
cut and eager and intelligent, just out of the Marines and seeking to
obtain employment and settle down, that that might have been sufficient
qualifications for you?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes--if, of course, there was no one with any better promise
that came along.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GRAEF. There have been several times when we have needed someone,
when they would send two or three people over, and it was necessary
for us to pick someone who had practically no experience in this work
because you don't find anyone who is experienced in the type work we
do. It is a very highly specialized trade.
The best you can hope to find is perhaps, and I'll tell you as I told
this Mrs. Latham, the person that stands the best chance of success is
perhaps someone who is industrious, willing to work, and not afraid
of work, who perhaps has some artistic ability, because the area is
opaquing of negatives with brushes and so forth, and possibly has some
photographic experience, where they may know about paper and at least
there will be some processes that they may have already learned or
become familiar with and we won't have to begin from the very beginning.
Mr. JENNER. You are talking about photographic paper?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. For example, some young man who has had an abiding interest
in amateur photography, in developing his own film----
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct, and so you see he would become familiar with
quite a few things in his hobby that he would know about when he came
to work for us. We wouldn't have to start from the very beginning and
say, "Now, this is film, and this is paper," and the difference between
the two and start from the very beginning. So, to explain a little bit
about why I didn't make any inquiries, I didn't frankly feel that any
were necessary.
The fact that he had--that the employment agency had said--told
me--that he had recently been discharged from the Marines, or had
gotten out of the Marines, and the fact that he had backed up that
statement immediately when he came over and said that he had been
recently discharged from the Marines, and I asked him if he had been
honorably discharged, more as a joke, and he said "Yes," he had. To me,
what background was there to check into? Was I going to go through his
commanding officer or his sergeant, for example?
Mr. JENNER. Well, it was a half truth--he had been honorably discharged
and then dishonorably discharged.
Mr. GRAEF. I wish I had--but the whole thing, of course, seemed so on
the level that I just hoped that he would be a person that could fill
the job.
Mr. JENNER. Was this interview in the ordinary course of business?
Mr. GRAEF. Oh, yes.
Mr. JENNER. And having in mind the particular position you desired
to train the man for whom you were looking, and having in mind the
work--the background of work of the Texas Employment Agency, you
made, I take it, the inquiries you would normally make under the
circumstances?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There was nothing extraordinary about this?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Out of the ordinary pattern?
Mr. GRAEF. No--he came in for this interview sometime in the morning,
10:30 or 11:00, and we perhaps talked for 15 minutes. Of course, I took
down his name and whatever information I could get on a piece of paper,
just for my own record, as I did with the other two or three boys that
had come previously or after him, and finally there was no one else,
and so then I had to make a decision, and, of course, I think I threw
this piece of paper away because they were just personal notes that
I had made about the interview, so that I could look back and remind
myself who was who. So, I believe, in fact I am very certain that Lee
called me back--I told him--at the time I interviewed him, I thought I
knew that he had the best chance of the other fellows of doing the job,
and usually I call them and would tell them that they are hired, but I
think in this case that there was no phone and that when I asked him
could I call him and let him know whether he had been hired or whether
he had not been hired--he said, "No, there is no phone" where I could
call him, and I said, "Well, I'll be making a decision perhaps tomorrow
and if you would care to call, I can let you know then."
Mr. JENNER. Didn't that excite any wonder on your part that there was
no telephone at which he could be reached?
Mr. GRAEF. No, not really. It's surprising how many of the young men
are in transit or moving--in many, many cases the people that have
applied for the job--it may just be circumstantial, but the people
that have applied for work with me don't have phones. They may have a
neighbor somewhere who they might give, but usually that's reluctant
because the neighbor doesn't want to be bothered and many, many of
them won't have phones, and many, many of them have very temporary
addresses. I mean, it may be a room somewhere where they are residing
for 2 or 3 or 4 days and they are in the process of finding some
other place to live, so this didn't excite any curiosity at all on my
part. The fact that he had again said he had been discharged recently
from the Marines--it seemed entirely plausible that he was trying to
find--he said he had a wife and either a baby--like I say, I don't
remember whether the baby was coming or already here--I think she was
here at that time. I think he said he had a wife and baby. I could
easily see how he would be looking or could have been looking for a few
weeks for better quarters and would not have a phone and would not have
a permanent address. So, this didn't excite any particular curiosity on
my part and I was intent, of course, on finding a dependable employee.
That was my main concern, so, I at this interview felt that he had the
best chance of making a go of this than the other applicants and so I
told him, "I'll be deciding definitely in a day or two. Call me back,"
which he did and I said, "Okay, come on in to work."
Mr. JENNER. So that you were not looking for any special skill. If
the gentleman whom you were interviewing had it, that would be a plus
factor?
Mr. GRAEF. Correct--correct.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall inquiring of him the extent, if any, of
his skills with respect to photography and his experience in that
connection, if any?
Mr. GRAEF. I don't recall; no. I believe I may have--because this would
be one of the normal things I would do in an interview. I think that he
exhibited enough, as I recall--I think he exhibited enough knowledge
that there again--about photography, that there was no curiosity raised
on my part that he didn't know about it.
I'm almost certain that I generally just asked him one or two things
about it and he answered them satisfactorily, or I would have, because
that's the usual thing--I asked them about these things--artistic
ability, any photographic experience, are you handy with your
hands--they work with their hands a good deal, and all these things
combined, would combine to make a topnotch man provided he worked.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GRAEF. Provided he was industrious and wanted to do a good job.
We'll say he wasn't lazy--at the same time--so the various qualities
I'm looking for in our type of work, in our department, are pretty hard
to find all of them in one man. So, Lee came to work for us--I don't
remember the exact salary; but it was about, oh, somewhere, I think
about $1.35 or $1.50 an hour; somewhere in there.
Mr. JENNER. Was that for a 40-hour week?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Looking at Commission Exhibit No. 427 again, would you
identify the handwriting and block printing on this Exhibit 427, if you
can?
There appears the word "terminated" with the date 4-6-63, which I
assume is April 6, 1963?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. In whose handwriting is that notation; do you know?
Mr. GRAEF. I don't know; I don't know. Now, this is my handwriting--the
date employed--October 12, 1962. I am almost positive that this is
Lee's block printing.
Mr. JENNER. That is the name "Lee Harvey Oswald"?
Mr. GRAEF. "Lee Harvey Oswald," and the various data on this card--the
social security number and the phone number.
Mr. JENNER. In view of your testimony, I'd like to ask you about that.
Now, there is a phone number there--is that LA-1-0692?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. In view of what you said that he responded to your inquiry
that he didn't have a phone number, how do you account for how that
phone number got into the blocks there?
Mr. GRAEF. Into this box here--at the time that I interviewed him, it
was probably--then, I--after this card was written, he may have been
employed here at our place, oh, perhaps a week or two before this card
was brought in to him to sign.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. GRAEF. In other words, I think because of the busy way the
department runs, sometimes days will elapse before we get around to
getting one of these to him and getting his social security number
and so forth. In other words, he came to work and some days may have
elapsed from the time, for example, that we had the interviews, there
may have been some days passed before he actually came to work. Now, at
this time, when I took this information down on my notes, my personal
notes of the interview, there was no phone number, as I recall.
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. GRAEF. Now, at the time I didn't notice this at all, but at the
time that this was written, of course--here the phone number is, so
he obviously had a phone number at this time, but he didn't, as I
remember, he didn't, because I didn't call him--I don't believe.
Mr. JENNER. Now, do you recognize the handwriting in which that phone
number and the social security number are?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I am pretty sure that that is Lee's printing.
Mr. JENNER. Then, to the left under the heading "Name in full," and
above that is Lee Harvey Oswald, you have testified to that, and the
next line is "Present address."
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. There appears immediately above those printed words "3519
Fairmount," and that is lined out. Do you recognize that handwriting?
Mr. GRAEF. The "3519 Fairmount," I am certain is Lee's also.
Mr. JENNER. And above that is 602 Elsbeth Street?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; now, I don't recognize that handwriting. Now, this card
would ordinarily be kept in the front office; it would not be in my
possession, and so for some reason this is probably one of the office
personnel who wrote this and crossed that--Lee's writing--out and wrote
in this at the top for some reason or other.
Mr. JENNER. Wrote in 602 Elsbeth Street?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And the next line there appears the word "permanent home
address," and above that is P.O. Box 2915.
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You don't know that handwriting?
Mr. GRAEF. I don't know that handwriting; I don't recognize that.
Mr. JENNER. You don't recall his having advised you that he had a post
office box?
Mr. GRAEF. No--no.
Mr. JENNER. You were about to refer to a figure number, "Number of
dependents."
There appears to have been a "2" written in there, and an overlay on
top of that is a "3"?
Mr. GRAEF. The "3" is mine. Now, I don't know why--I can almost
remember writing that "3" but whether he changed his mind and wanted
it put "3"--that sometimes happens with income tax the way it is--that
may have happened because he first was going to take two dependents and
then decided to change it to a "3"--it was probably about the time that
this was brought in. It looks like my "3" but I'm not sure about it.
I've looked at it and it looks like a "3" that I might make over it,
but I can't recall. I thought I might help a little there but I don't
think I can. Whether he wrote down "2" on the number of dependents and
then decided--when the card was in my possession, when I was going
to turn it into the front office to make it "3", and then I changed
it--that may have happened, but I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Well, it is obviously either a different handwriting or
certainly a different instrument.
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That's a different signature.
Mr. GRAEF. I was just comparing the pen I used to--used up here and
this may be pencil. No, I believe it is a ballpoint pen.
Mr. JENNER. Now, that card is signed "Lee Harvey Oswald." Do you recall
whether the card was signed in your presence?
Mr. GRAEF. No; it may not have been. In other words, generally, we hand
this card to an employee and he fills out the whole card and then I
would take it and turn it up to the front office, so I could have been
back in the department working when he filled the whole thing out and
signed it.
Mr. JENNER. Now, is Commission Exhibit 427 part of the books and
records of Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall kept in the usual and regular course
of business?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And prepared in part by you and the remaining part under
your general supervision and direction?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I would say. In other words, I turned the card over to
the employee and asked him to fill it out with the information it has
on the card. He returns it to me and I turn it into the front office.
Mr. JENNER. And this particular card, with respect to Lee Harvey
Oswald, to the best of your recollection was made and thereafter
maintained among other books, files, and records and documents of
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall as they ordinarily are?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; they are.
Mr. JENNER. There is nothing unusual, extraordinary or out of line?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. With respect to the manner in which and the circumstances
under which Commission Exhibit 427 came into existence and was
maintained?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. And to the best of your knowledge, information and belief,
is this card now in the same condition it was as of the date of
termination of employment of Lee Harvey Oswald, except for the pencil
notation in the extreme bottom right hand portion of the card on its
face and in which appeared in an encirclement, the letter "D" and the
figure "11"?
Mr. GRAEF. To the best of my knowledge, it is. I haven't seen the card
since I turned it into the office at the time that he was employed,
so the handwriting that says, "Terminated," there, and that date--I
haven't seen--I mean whether the card has been altered or not I don't
know, because, of course, I didn't see it at any time after that date.
Mr. JENNER. You mean after the date terminated 4-6-63?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; after "terminated" was written there. I haven't
actually seen the card since the time that he was employed, roughly,
since he wrote the card out and handed it to me and I turned it into
the front office. To the best of my recollection that's the last time I
have seen that.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you do recall that this card, at least to the extent
of the name, Lee Harvey Oswald, in block printing and your handwriting
of the date October 12, 1962--that was filled out to that extent at
least in your presence?
Mr. GRAEF. Mainly, yes. I mean, I may have been in the department and
doing some other tasks, but he sat down and filled it out. I gave it
to him and he sat down somewhere and filled it out and I may have been
moving around somewhere. I didn't actually watch him write it out
word for word and line for line. The reason this October 12 is in my
handwriting--ordinarily the employee fills that out.
Mr. JENNER. That appears opposite the printed words, "Date Employed"?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; ordinarily, the employee will go ahead and fill that
date in also, but he had forgotten to and this was probably filled out
a few days after he was employed.
Mr. JENNER. But that is in your handwriting?
Mr. GRAEF. But that is in my handwriting. I vaguely recall that he had
not filled that in and I said something, "I'll save you the trouble,"
and then I wrote that in.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I offer in evidence as Commission
Exhibit No. 427, the employee identification questionnaire of
Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. which has now been identified.
How long have you been employed by Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 11 or 12--I've almost forgotten--it seems it
was either 1952 or 1953, I came with them.
Mr. JENNER. Is this an old Dallas firm?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. By reputation, how long has it been around here?
Mr. GRAEF. I believe about since 1922.
Mr. JENNER. Does this company do any lithography?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us in general, apart from your particular interests
and work in the company, what in general does the company do?
Mr. GRAEF. We set type. We have an enormous inventory of all kinds of
type faces, all designs, for example, scripts--roman letters, sans
serif faces--an enormous repertoire of styles from which advertising
agencies and artists can choose to make up advertisements for headlines
or body copy. This basically is our biggest function. We don't do any
printing.
Mr. JENNER. Do you make mats?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; it's a rather complete service. We can take an
advertisement from the very beginning and actually carry it all the
way through to the end, to the point where we mail the mats to the
newspapers for insertion, but we don't do any printing as such, of any
kind.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of Dallas?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Just tell me in a few words something about yourself?
Mr. GRAEF. Oh, golly--I was born in Chicago, Ill.
Mr. JENNER. So was I.
Mr. GRAEF. I went to Lane Tech.
Mr. JENNER. I went to Lindblom High School, and that's where I
practiced law and have done for 30 years.
Mr. GRAEF. Well, I haven't been back there for quite some time. I left
there about 1940, after graduating from high school, took commercial
art at Lane Tech, and I went down to Tennessee and worked at the
Kingsport Press designing book covers and also the Holston ordnance
works, and during the very beginning of the war, this was the last--the
Second World War--then I was drafted into the service and served as an
airborne engineer for 3 years.
Mr. JENNER. In the Army?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; I spent 2 years overseas and came back to Kingsport,
Tenn., and then the wife and I decided to head west, and while I was
away, she had written various chambers of commerce around the country
and the Dallas Chamber of Commerce did the best job, so we decided to
take a short vacation here and see if I could find work, which I did,
and which we did and I did, and this was in 1946, so we have been here
ever since.
Mr. JENNER. You were each native born Americans?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.
And honorably discharged--period.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this man is employed--carry on.
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Was he regular in his arrival at work?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Were his work habits in that connection satisfactory?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes. I would say he was very punctual in his arrival to
work. He began working under me and I began the process of teaching him
how to use our equipment.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, he worked directly with you or under you or
under your supervision and direction?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct--that's correct. He was with me a great part
of the time. Of course, there are various times when I couldn't be
with him, but for the better part of the first 3 or 4 months of his
employment--he worked for us approximately 6 months.
Mr. JENNER. Tell us what you taught him and how you attempted to train
him and in what, and give me also, when you are doing that, his skills
and aptitudes, as you recall them at the beginning?
Mr. GRAEF. Well, as I have explained, the most we hope for in a
person is that perhaps any past skills they have will help them in
learning our work, but basically our work is so different that there
is no experienced help, and everyone who comes into the department is
automatically a trainee.
Mr. JENNER. And he fell into that category?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct. All our cameras are different from the
ordinary cameras you find in commercial printing shops or printing
establishments.
Mr. JENNER. Are these portable cameras or fixed cameras?
Mr. GRAEF. No, fixed cameras--dark room cameras.
Mr. JENNER. When I used the expression "fixed," I had in my own mind
that they would be these large-size cameras, fixed in the sense that
they would be adjacent to a wall or a bench or a table.
Mr. GRAEF. Or the floor?
Mr. JENNER. Or the floor.
Mr. GRAEF. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And be so heavy as not to be portable or so firmly secured
as not to be removable?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you indicate their size?
Mr. GRAEF. I would say approximately 8 feet long total length, with 6
or 7 feet of the front of the camera projecting through a wall, which
on the outside of that wall have the exposure lights to light whatever
you are going to shoot. Then, the back of the camera sticks through
the wall in the darkroom and on the back of the camera, of course, you
place your light-sensitive film and make your exposure this way.
Mr. JENNER. And do you use light-sensitive film plates?
Mr. GRAEF. No; ordinary commercial Litho film or Ortho film that are
generally available from large companies.
Mr. JENNER. Indicate the size of the frames?
Mr. GRAEF. Approximately 20 by 24 inches. The difference in these
cameras--they are commonly known as modification cameras. As I said
previously, you could take a line of type and twist it or curve it
or stretch it out of proportion. As they are different compared with
ordinary cameras that are used in most places throughout the country
in that they do not have any scales on them. Ordinarily you measure
a piece of copy and you set the cameras on a certain number, and for
example, the same size--if you wanted to make the same size shot, you
would set your copy board on No. 1, and you would set your film carrier
on No. 1, put your film in and make your exposure, and you get a same
size shot, but our cameras have no scales and you have to find visually
and manually your sizes, everything is flexible on the camera. The
boards move----
Mr. JENNER. What boards?
Mr. GRAEF. The copy boards can twist. The film carrier can twist.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "twist" do you mean twist the image?
Mr. GRAEF. On its axis--actually twist on its axis.
Mr. JENNER. You mean "twist" as distinguished from "turn"?
Mr. GRAEF. Well, let me say "turn"--then. Can turn on its axis. The
lens camera can be shifted up or down or to the right or left. There
are various devices that are supplied with the camera, consisting of
prisms through which you can make distortions, various other forms
which can be used to make various complicated bends and waves in type
or illustrations, or what have you.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the bends or waves--when you say bends or waves in
type, you mean you do not bend or twist the copy itself--that is, the
thing to be photographed, but by use of prisms and other distortion
devices, the image implanted on the film is a twist or distortion of
the copy or photograph?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; except we do both.
Mr. JENNER. You do straight photographing as well as distortion
photography?
Mr. GRAEF. Well, many times, we will take the actual copy and twist
it. Anything goes to get the final results, whatever has to be done,
for example if we want to make a curved shot of a label, a flat
two-dimensional label, a printed label, and we wanted to curve that
label, we might take an empty tin can and paste that on the tin can and
tip the tin can so that the lens looking at it would pickup the curve.
We would tilt the can to such a degree that the lens in its position
would pickup this curve of the label, and, of course, we would make an
exposure, so anything goes in camera modification.
You start with the fundamentals of learning film and paper; the
characteristics of them--we have many grades of paper, many contrasts
of paper; we have several different varieties of film; the time
developing these various papers--all of these have to be learned by
an applicant before he can go on to beginning the camera, so it is a
progression of a trade that takes time.
Mr. JENNER. Does this include color work?
Mr. GRAEF. No; all black and white.
Mr. JENNER. Oh, all black and white?
Mr. GRAEF. All black and white. We shoot color copy occasionally, but
we don't do color work.
Mr. JENNER. That is, when I say color work, I intended two
things--first, color film and secondly, colored ultimate product.
Mr. GRAEF. Colored film, no; we do not develop colored film and
we don't shoot colored film. We might, in black and white, make a
two-color a set of two-color negatives or something, for example, we
might shoot part of a label and furnish a negative that would print the
black on something and we might furnish an additional negative that
would register with the first, that would print a color. For example,
a colored border around the black copy and we would furnish these two
negatives to a customer and he might print it in two colors, choosing
whatever colors he wanted.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; he could use whatever ink he wished to employ on the
mat?
Mr. GRAEF. That's correct.
Mr. JENNER. Or, do you sometimes use lead slugs?
Mr. GRAEF. Never.
Mr. JENNER. Of course, the customer would make a lead slug from the mat
and then print it?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes. Or, have a plate made, for example, in offset printing
from our negatives--he could burn in plates and which would run two
colors. He could burn his black plate and he could burn his red plate,
for example.
Mr. JENNER. Well, I got you to digress a little bit from telling
us your teaching of Mr. Oswald from his gradual development or
undevelopment?
Mr. GRAEF. Of course, Oswald was not the first one that has come into
our department, because his wasn't an unusual case. He was just another
employee among many whom I have trained during these years--through
these years.
Mr. JENNER. Were there others you were training at this time?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Of substantially like experience?
Mr. GRAEF. No. There were others in various stages of training, but
none who was starting from the very beginning, we'll say, so, of
course, even though he had had--he said he had had experience in
photography, we started from the very beginning because the papers that
you ordinarily use in amateur photography are somewhat different from
the papers that we use in our work. The film that you would use in
amateur photography is different than the film that we use in our work,
so we start from the beginning in every case and this was the situation
with Lee Oswald.
I began--we'll say for the first 3 or 4 days--he probably followed me
around just to see what went on, learned how to make a print on the
contact frame the way that our customers require, and became familiar
with the routine of the department and little by little he was allowed
to do various things to begin his training.
This period is rather indistinct because all this was going on--it
isn't a case of being able to devote all of one's time to a training,
at the same time that he was being trained, there was other work that
had to be produced, so he didn't receive--the full benefit, shall I
say, of all of my time. I would say rather, he received just the time
that I could allow him, which I always wanted to give him more time but
never seemed to find that time, so little by little, as I say, this
period is very indistinct, but little by little he learned to handle
the various papers and the films and then we began teaching him how to
work the modification cameras beginning with straight shooting.
In other words--normal sizing of flax copy and also how to build jobs.
Each man is more or less an integrated supply of the work. The normal
thing in our department is for a man to pick up a job or jobs, go back
and shoot them, develop them, print them, dry them, bring them back up,
cut them out, and bring them back up to the front of the department.
Mr. JENNER. When you say "print them," you mean make prints from the
negatives?
Mr. GRAEF. Make prints from the negatives on photographic paper, bring
them back up to the front, reorganize them with their proper job
tickets, and then take those finished jobs up to the front delivery
desk. So, Lee began straight shooting--normal enlargement and reduction
of straight copy.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you mean by straight copy--do you distinguish that
from the--from distortion photographing?
Mr. GRAEF. Distortion work; yes. Now, the time that it took to bring
him up to this point may have been 2 or 3 months, at any rate. It was
at this time that we began, or he began to make a few mistakes on
sizing. He would take a job back and it might be that his orders were
to make it 4 inches wide and when the final print came up it might be
4-1/4 inches wide or 4-1/8 inches wide and this would have to be done
over.
Mr. JENNER. Now, as much a difference as one-eighth of an inch on
sizing as against an order for, let's say, exactly 4 inches or for
one-eighth of an inch, as the case might be, would make that particular
work unusable?
Mr. GRAEF. Correct.
Mr. JENNER. This has to be exactitude?
Mr. GRAEF. Right. This didn't mean that every job was wrong, but
little by little as the days passed and we got into--we'll say--into
the fourth and fifth month of his employment, more and more he was
being relied upon to produce this exact work and there were too many
times--it was his mistakes were above normal--he was making too many
mistakes. Of course, we helped him as much as we could to do a better
job.
Mr. JENNER. Was it your impression along about this area that the
errors were ones of lack of skill, or do you have a recollection now of
any attributing on your part of those errors to lack of interest, lack
of industry, dissatisfaction with the position--would you give me your
impression in this connection, please?
Mr. GRAEF. Well, my impression of his mistakes were somehow that he
just couldn't manage to avoid them. It wasn't that he lacked industry
or didn't try. Whenever he was asked to do a job over, he would do it
willingly for me, with no--he would be more perturbed at himself that
he had made an error, so I think he just couldn't--he somehow couldn't
manage to handle work that was that exact. It wasn't that he wasn't
trying or didn't work hard to do the job, but somehow he just couldn't
make it, and now, like I said, it wasn't every job that this happened,
but it was too frequent to allow. There were too many times that these
things had to be made over and they added to the final reason for
dismissing him.
Mr. JENNER. You carry on--I want this in your own words without
prompting on my part.
Mr. GRAEF. Sure. Now, this was approximately the fourth month that he
began to be given the responsibility for making these jobs, and it
began to become evident then that he was making these mistakes. We
kept, of course, trying to train him--now, by this time he was working
under other people, and many times he was going through the processes
of doing these jobs by himself and carrying the whole job through as I
have outlined previously.
Mr. JENNER. This work didn't, I take it, require his creating any
copies?
Mr. GRAEF. I beg your pardon?
Mr. JENNER. Did you prepare copy--I'm talking about you personally?
Mr. GRAEF. No; very, very seldom.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a department in which advertising copy is
prepared?
Mr. GRAEF. If you mean by that--like pasting up advertisements?
Mr. JENNER. No; I mean preparing them.
Mr. GRAEF. Actually working on layouts and ideas to be used--creative
ideas and things like that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; the body of copy.
Mr. GRAEF. No; we do for our own firm create small ads and so forth.
Mr. JENNER. What I am getting at, he never reached the point which he
had to do any creating of copy in the sense that I am talking about,
which would then lead you to have some experience with him as to his
use of grammar?
Mr. GRAEF. No.
Mr. JENNER. Or his skills along those lines?
Mr. GRAEF. No; now, in the course of his carrying these jobs through
and back in the darkroom, I began to hear vague rumors of friction
between him and the other employees. The nature of our business is such
that we are under pressure a good deal of the time to meet deadlines.
Mr. JENNER. Time pressures?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; in the interest of teamwork and getting a job out, we
try to tend to overlook things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Things like what?
Mr. GRAEF. Flareups of temper or an ugly word or something like that
that someone who may be under particular pressure at the time, and
someone says the wrong thing--it might set them off a little bit, so
I began to hear rumors of some of these things happening with Lee,
but it has happened with other fellows also, but little by little,
I mean other fellows who have had these flareups--I have had them
myself--something will happen that will just be the straw that broke
the camel's back, and you will spout off, you know, but this began
happening--I began to hear rumors--I began, and of course, sometimes
the boss is the last to know, and I began hearing that--or began
noticing--that very few people liked him. He was very difficult to
get along with. Other people that worked with him, with whom I had
conversations and Lee's name came up or something came up about Lee,
they wouldn't speak kindly toward him, to say the very least, and
something might have happened between them and Lee that they hadn't
mentioned it to anyone--some word that had been said in an unfriendly
way, that they just overlooked or passed off, but it didn't leave
a good impression with them from then on. Lee was not one to make
friends. I never had any words with him at all. He never countered any
order that I gave him, he always did what I told him to do the way I
told him to do it. It might have been wrong sometimes, but he never was
antagonistic.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, he might not have been able to carry out
your directions, but he tried to do so?
Mr. GRAEF. That's so.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't mean your directions to him might have been
wrong?
Mr. GRAEF. No; he was not belligerent to me. Anything that I told him
to do, he did, or tried to do to the best of his ability.
Mr. JENNER. But you began having the impression, with the increased
intensity, that he was not getting along with employees at his level?
Mr. GRAEF. Right. I was a witness to one of these flareups which I
had, up to this time, taken not lightly, but passed it off as one
of those things that happen in our department quite frequently, but
I was quite close to one of Lee's flareups. I don't know who was
responsible--whether it was Lee or one of the other workers, so at the
time I couldn't actually reprimand anyone, so I didn't, but tried to
pacify and laugh the whole thing off and make some remark that "Well,
we are all under pressure. Let's get down and let's get on with the
job." Something to that effect.
Then, the two people went their separate ways but it was quite a
flareup, a sudden flareup of temper--a quick chip on the shoulder thing
that I don't know--I have a hard time understanding people that lose
their temper so quickly.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the impression you had of him?
Mr. GRAEF. Yes; at that time--from that time on I did have that
impression.
Mr. JENNER. Now, was this more an impression you gained from several
incidents rather than one isolated incident?
Mr. GRAEF. No; of course, I have to take into account the evidence of
all the other people--some of the things that they said and the way
they didn't get along with him and then I saw the way he acted at this
particular time, and I had never been particularly close enough to the
boy so that I knew his personality. He was strictly a worker who was
training and he did the job, or tried to do the job, and so I wasn't
very close to his personality at all until this particular incident.
It was only when he began--after, we'll say, he got out from under my
wing as a trainer and began up to that time--he was following me around
and was doing what I told him and there was very little chance for him
to be alone with anyone and we didn't have any friction for about the
first 2 or 3 months that he was employed, but he then began to be given
the responsibility of doing these jobs himself.
Mr. JENNER. Himself and with others?
Mr. GRAEF. And with others.
Mr. JENNER. But not under your very immediate supervision?
Mr. GRAEF. Not under my immediate supervision; no.
Mr. JENNER. Did this call for him, then, to work and cooperate with
others?