The testimony of Irving Statman was taken at 4:20 p.m., on April 1,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Statman, would you rise and be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear that in the deposition you are about to give, you
will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. STATMAN. I do.
Mr. JENNER. I'm Albert E. Jenner, Jr., of the legal staff of the Warren
Commission. The Commission was authorized by Senate Joint Resolution to
provide a body to investigate the assassination of our late President,
John Fitzgerald Kennedy, and pursuant to that legislation, the
President, Lyndon B. Johnson, appointed the Commission under Executive
Order 11130, and we of the staff are enjoined by the Commission
and the Commission itself to inquire into all the circumstances,
especially that we find pertinent data, regarding Lee Harvey Oswald, to
investigate his life and a good many people, you included, either in an
official capacity or friends with other people who touched his life in
some fashion or other.
Your employment is what?
Mr. STATMAN. The assistant district director of the Dallas district of
the Texas Employment Commission.
Mr. JENNER. And just tell us generally what your duties are in that
respect?
Mr. STATMAN. Well, we have the unemployment compensation of this and
the placement office, and research and statistical branch, and an
office in Garland and in Grand Prairie. They are separate entities and
it is my duty to assist the district director in any functions there
are, and to assist in any problems that there are in any of the offices.
Mr. JENNER. Is there any office of the Commission in Fort Worth?
Mr. STATMAN. Yes. We are the Dallas district. Now, also, he was
registered in the Fort Worth district too.
Mr. JENNER. He was?
Mr. STATMAN. Yes; but our connection with him was in actually three
capacities--number one, as an applicant for a job, and as an applicant
for a job, we had him counseled. In other words, if there are any
reasons to believe that employment might be difficult for a person to
obtain due to, maybe inexperience or due to change in occupation or
some problem, we have a counseling setup that will counsel this person
to the point where we feel we can help place him.
In other words, now, we are not equipped to give him psychological
counseling or give him home therapy. Our job is placement counseling
and we are trying to counsel them to the point where we can facilitate
placing him onto a job and counseling duties then are through.
He was also referred to the counselor due to some apparent counseling
needs, and he also filed a claim for unemployment insurance, so those
are the three areas that he touched in the Dallas district.
Mr. JENNER. You learned of those three areas--his touching those areas
from books, records and documents of the Commission?
Mr. STATMAN. Well, that's true. When this FBI man came in, and I can't
think of his name--I've got his card, but I probably cleaned my nails
with it, but anyway, he came in and asked for a copy of, or the actual
documents, and we told him that we had a certain amount of documents
here and there were others in Austin, due to that interstate claim
situation, and so we gave him all of our records, and also he contacted
an FBI agent in Austin, and our Austin State office gave him some
records.
Now, in preparing these records, then, I saw the documents that we had
on him. Now, what I have with me here is a copy of his application card.
Mr. JENNER. Could I describe that on the record first?
Mr. STATMAN. Yes; I think it is an E-13, let me make sure what this
number is, and--it is his application card.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, Mr. Statman has handed me a form
entitled--what?
Mr. STATMAN. It's an E-13--it's an E-13 application.
Mr. JENNER. Now, you have handed me two sheets.
Mr. STATMAN. Now, this represents the front.
Mr. JENNER. The top sheet I have is the front of the card and the
second sheet is the inside or reverse side?
Mr. STATMAN. No; the inside--this is a folded affair and, let me me
fold it for you properly. In other words, this is the way the card
would look.
Mr. JENNER. It's a foldover card.
Mr. STATMAN. Right--like this. Now, this is an exact replica.
Mr. JENNER. It is letter size when opened fully, and it is folded in
half.
The bottom of the top sheet reads, "Application card E-13" (1261) and
for purposes of identification of the record what would be the back of
the card when folded, but which is the top of the sheet as I hold it
in my hand, it reads, "Describe your longest and most important jobs,
including Military Service, beginning with your most recent job."
The second sheet which would form the reverse side of the card,
portions of which I have read and which in turn would be the inside
of the card when folded, has no form number on it, but it reads at
the top, "Do not write below this line," and then in the next line in
printing. "Conditions affecting employment," in the left-hand side, and
"Handicap description," on the right-hand side.
Mr. STATMAN. Do you want me to interpret on that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I do. [The Exhibit is Cunningham Exhibit No. 1.] Now,
this card--I will turn it now back to the front or top of the folded
card. Will you state for the record what this is and does it relate to
Lee Oswald, first?
Mr. STATMAN. This is his application card.
Mr. JENNER. Now, folding it in half, so that I understand it, as
folded in half--what now is facing us with the form number at the
bottom, would be top of the folded card. [The original card, of which
Cunningham Exhibit No. 1 is a copy, is in evidence as Cunningham
Exhibit No. 1-A.]
Mr. STATMAN. Right.
Mr. JENNER. That means that Lee Oswald had a contact with the Texas
Employment Commission and this is a record made.
Mr. STATMAN. On 10-9-62. This card indicates that he came in.
Mr. JENNER. That he came in on the 9th of October 1962?
Mr. STATMAN. That was his first contact with us.
Mr. JENNER. And what is done, then, in the normal course of this sort
of thing, when an applicant comes in for the first time?
Mr. STATMAN. The first is--this card is filled out, and the number one
thing is to get the pertinent facts, and do you want me to give what we
have on him?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STATMAN. We have his name and his address.
Mr. JENNER. And what address is that?
Mr. STATMAN. 2515 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and a telephone
number that indicates an Irving number--BL-3-1628, social security
number was given--433-54-3937. Now, under this is his military service
to ascertain if he is a veteran, because veterans get preference. In
other words, I don't know if you need to know that, but that pink card
indicates a veteran, and by law we are to give veterans preference, and
the information here is to again ascertain if he is to get veterans
preference. In this he listed the entry of his service date--10-23-56,
and he was released from active service 9-11-59.
Then, underneath--another category, "If needed for work, do you have--"
and it indicates "License, trucks, uniforms, car, tools," and he stated
that he had none of these. In other words, some companies before they
will hire you, like a mechanic has to have his own tools and some don't.
Mr. JENNER. He answered he had none of those; is that correct?
Mr. STATMAN. Yes--none. Now, he gave his educational background--do you
want to go into that?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STATMAN. He stated that he went to Arlington Heights, Fort Worth, 2
years, 5/56 and in that----
Mr. JENNER. What is 5/56?
Mr. STATMAN. Apparently, that is when he left school--I don't know--I'm
guessing at that.
Mr. JENNER. But that card does indicate that he told the interviewing
official of the Commission that he attended Arlington Heights High
School in Fort Worth for 2 years, terminating in May 1956.
Mr. STATMAN. I think you can figure out, if that would be the
start--let me see--in 1956, how old would he have been--he would have
been 17 years old, so it seems more plausible that he left in 1956 than
he started, wouldn't it to you?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. STATMAN. All right. He indicated courses that he took--2 years
English, 1 year general math, 1 year algebra, 1 year general science.
Now, he indicates he has gotten a high school equivalency. That could
have been obtained either through taking a G.E.D.----
Mr. JENNER. What is that?
Mr. STATMAN. General education--something--anyway, you can take a test
here and they will give you what is know as a high school equivalency,
or he might have obtained that in the Army or in the Marine Corps, but
this is tantamount to having a high school education without completing
the 4 years.
Mr. JENNER. But indicating he did not complete 4 years?
Mr. STATMAN. Not 4 years formal education. He is, as the name
indicates, it is an equivalent--it's a certification that the man has
an equivalency of a high school education.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. STATMAN. Then, he had 2-1/2 months of electronic fundamentals,
2-1/2 months radar operator.
Mr. JENNER. Does he have some dates?
Mr. STATMAN. That's 1957--that was prior to when he was in the Marine
Corps. Now, I can't tell you whether those dates run concurrently or
not.
He might have had a training first and then the radar operation next.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, in whose handwriting or hand printing is that
document?
Mr. STATMAN. I can't be sure--some of these are self applicants. In
other words, they take it themselves, and others are prepared by the
interviewer. Now, this Don Brooks could tell you. Here is his signature.
Mr. JENNER. Here is whose signature?
Mr. STATMAN. Lee Harvey Oswald's. This is on a different document.
Mr. JENNER. We will get to that in a minute.
Mr. STATMAN. I would guess that Don Brooks did this, because it is
fairly consistent, I mean, you don't see a change of handwriting.
Usually the applicant, if he is making the application will show a
different handwriting.
Mr. JENNER. Is Mr. Don Brooks still employed by the Commission?
Mr. STATMAN. Yes. Usually, if the applicant makes the application and
the interviewer completes it, you can see a change in the handwritings
and you don't here. Again, I am guessing that this was prepared by Don
Brooks.
Now, up on the top is identifying information.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this is up on top of the exhibit as folded in half?
Mr. STATMAN. Yes, adjacent to the identifying information--there is a
block--marital status, widow, single, and divorced, and he has checked
"Marital status." Underneath that is a block for number of dependents,
and he has indicated that he has two dependents.
Mr. JENNER. That would indicate a wife and child?
Mr. STATMAN. Not necessarily--it would just indicate he has two
dependents. I couldn't say he had a wife and child--knowing a little
bit about him you could say that.
Birthday 10-15-39.
Mr. JENNER. Is that 10-15 or 10-18-39?
Mr. STATMAN. I'm sorry, you are right, it is 10-18-39. Height 5 feet 9
inches, weight, 150 pounds, education--he has listed high school with
an asterisk, and the asterisk indicates he has a high school equivalent
as opposed to 4 years formal education.
Now, in the block showing his test results, which refer to this general
aptitude test battery and which I have a document on that, and if you
want to wait, we will come to that later.
Mr. JENNER. I do want to go into it and we will hold that off.
Mr. STATMAN. That indicates--no, let's do go into this. In the general
aptitude battery--you have certain cutoff scores, and these scores
indicate a propensity or an aptitude in the certain occupational areas,
which are totaled by numbers.
Now, the aptitudes that he has proficiency in or propensity in has been
indicated in the test results.
Mr. JENNER. And those in turn you will discuss in connection with
another document?
Mr. STATMAN. Well, you've got Helen Cunningham, who is a counselor and
she can give you a lot better information on that.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. STATMAN. Now, on the front in the date column--we do not always
indicate when an individual is in, only when we see his card might
become inactive, we will put it, so this doesn't necessarily mean that
these are the only times he has been in, but this does indicate, as we
previously stated, that he originally came in 10-9-62, he was in on
10-10-62, and he was in on 4-8-63, he was in on 4-12-63, he was in on
10-3-63. This R.I. indicates a reinterview. That means that he has been
previously registered and we are reinterviewing him to bring his card
up to date.
Mr. JENNER. And the R.I. appears to the left of the entry--October 8,
1963; correct?
Mr. STATMAN. Yes, sir.
Now, there is just one more bit of information on this. Is your wife
employed--and he indicated "no".
Now, we are turning this document on the back.
Mr. JENNER. That is--it would be the back when folded?
Mr. STATMAN. Right. Now, this is the information on the back--this is
the job history, the chronological job history, including military
service, and we are starting chronologically backwards, with the latest
job first.
On this is indicated that he worked for Leslie Welding Co., length of
job--4 months; date ended--10/62; rate of pay, $1.25; the duties--he
has sheet metal works, and I think it says, "Made ventilators and cut
sheet metal."
Mr. JENNER. That's correct.
Mr. STATMAN. Okay. The next job chronologically was [reading] the
William B. Rilly Co. Do you want that address?
Mr. JENNER. If you please.
Mr. STATMAN (reading). 640 Magazine Street, New Orleans, La. This Rilly
is R-i-l-l-y (spelling), William B. Rilly, and this was typographical
and that was the nature of the business; length of job--4 months; date
ended--7/63; rate of pay--$1.50.