The testimony of R. L. Adams was taken at 1:55 p.m., on April 1, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, Assistant
Attorney General of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Adams, would you rise and be sworn, please?
Mr. ADAMS. Surely.
Mr. JENNER. Do you solemnly swear in the testimony which you are about
to give on deposition that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth?
Mr. ADAMS. I do.
Mr. JENNER. For the record, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the
members of the legal staff on the President's Commission, which, as
I believe you know, was authorized to be created by Senate Joint
Resolution 137, and President Johnson added to that legislative
authority by an Executive Order 11130 appointing the Commission and
fixed its powers and duties. In general its duties are directed towards
investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the
tragic event of November 22, 1963, the assassination of President John
Fitzgerald Kennedy.
This has brought us as members of the staff and the Commission itself
to inquire into a rather wide range of circumstances, including running
down a lot of things that have arisen by way of rumor and otherwise, to
sort out the wheat from the chaff.
One of the people towards whom our particular inquiries have been
directed is Lee Harvey Oswald, and we have testimony from a host of
people who had some contact with him during his lifetime.
The particular assignment of our division, Mr. Liebeler and I and
others helping us, is of Mr. Oswald's life from the day he came on this
earth until his death on the 24th of November 1963.
If I may ask you some questions--I understand you had some contact with
him or in your official capacity in the Texas Employment Commission,
you in turn have people under your supervision and direction at least
who had contact with him?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You are Mr. R. L. Adams of the Texas Employment Commission,
and is that located at 1025 Elm Street?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. If you would, would you state your official position with
the Texas Employment Commission, please?
Mr. ADAMS. I am employed as a placement interviewer.
Mr. JENNER. And do you have persons under your supervision and
direction?
Mr. ADAMS. No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Tell me what is the Texas Employment Commission?
Mr. ADAMS. The Texas Employment Commission is the Texas version of
the Federal-State Employment Service. As such, it is operated and
jointly federal-state funded, and seeks to assist those people who are
unemployed primarily through finding employment for them and in the
event that we are unable to do so, to provide them with unemployment
compensation for such time as they may be eligible.
Mr. JENNER. I happen to be an Illinoian myself. I practice law in
Chicago--it's tied in with the Unemployment Compensation Commission?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And those who had suffered unemployment seek the assistance
of the Texas Employment Commission to obtain for them new employment?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How does that operate, do you--do the employers register
with you or they call you up--I would like to have you give me a normal
operation so that we can compare that background on normalcy against
what might have occurred with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. ADAMS. Normally, employers in all categories of business and
industry will use many avenues to obtain suitable employees. One
of them, hopefully used by most of them, is the Texas Employment
Commission.
Mr. JENNER. I said to you that my impression from the depositions we
have taken is that your commission does have and is held in reasonably
high regard by employers and the ones I have interviewed have indicated
that they may resort to the commission rather frequently.
Mr. ADAMS. I am delighted to hear it. It is a selling job--this is not
your main thing, but because it is a State-Federal organization, it
has been subjected to a lot of unpleasant publicity which was formerly
known as the Texas Unemployment Commission, which did nothing to
enhance it.
I worked on the street for a while calling on businesses and more
often than not I ran into people who were very dissatisfied with the
commission because of previous poor service, or alleged poor service,
and in the time that I have been with the commission, 2 years, I think
we have striven to improve the quality of service, both to employers
and to applicants and so employers do call us. Some of them have
standing orders with us. Some of them use us once and they don't get
what they want and that's the last we hear from them, but by the same
token we hope that all people unemployed would come to us in the course
of their efforts to find jobs. I think many people mistakenly assume
that TEC exists to find them jobs. This is not true. TEC exists to help
them find jobs and in the course of their job seeking, they, I suspect
75 percent of them, will register with TEC and with other agencies.
Mr. JENNER. Other like agencies or private employment agencies?
Mr. ADAMS. Private agencies and, of course, we have the continuing
battle of the public versus private activities.
Mr. JENNER. The scope of employment, that is the work, is of great
variety, is it, the jobs that are being served?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes; all the way from laborers up through doctors of
philosophy in varying fields.
Mr. JENNER. Do you ever seek, for example, let's use a hypothetical
day--you mention a doctor of philosophy--let's say he had a Ph. D. in
geology, and he came to the commission. You do not have at the moment,
let us say, with respect to this hypothetical Ph. D., an inquiry from a
prospective employer. Do you mean that the TEC would in that kind of an
incident--a man of quite high education, would you seek a position for
him by calling possible employers?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes; we would do this and we refer to it either as job
development or the projection of a highly qualified applicant to
selected employers who might be in need of such a man.
Mr. JENNER. When did you become employed by or connected with the TEC,
as you call it?
Mr. ADAMS. Well, I retired from the United States Air Force in January
of 1960, and attempted to be a salesman for about a year and thereby
losing my hat and shirt, and I decided I had misused the talents that I
had mastered in the service and returned to Government service.
Mr. JENNER. That was when?
Mr. ADAMS. I joined TEC on March 9, 1962.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a native of this area?
Mr. ADAMS. No, I am a Chicagoan.
Mr. JENNER. You are--so am I. I think I mentioned that. How old are you?
Mr. ADAMS. I am 47, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was there an occasion when in your position with TEC you
had some contact with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you relate that and give all the circumstances as you
now recall, in the chronology that you recall?
Mr. ADAMS. I can't, except that my memory was refreshed by my office
manager subsequent to the events of November 22.
Mr. JENNER. Having refreshed your recollection, do you now have a
recollection?
Mr. ADAMS. Vaguely.
Mr. JENNER. Well, give us your best recollection--your best present
recollection of this event and relate it.
Mr. ADAMS. At the time that I--in September, beginning the second
week in September of 1963, I was brought in from employment service
representative duties, which is going out and calling on businesses to
gain some experience on a placement desk.
After I had been there, well, when November the 22d rolled around and a
couple of months--when this happened, the following Monday morning when
I came to work, I said, "I'll bet that boy is in my files."
I went to check and I couldn't find any record of it and the office
manager said, "What are you looking for?" And I said, "You know what I
am looking for." And he said, "I've found it."
Mr. JENNER. Who is the office manager?
Mr. ADAMS. Mr. A. K. Sayre [spelling] S-a-y-r-e.
Mr. JENNER. Is he still with the TEC?
Mr. ADAMS. He is still the office manager--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, then, is there a lady there by the name of
Louise Latham?
Mr. ADAMS. She resigned from the Texas Employment Commission effective
yesterday, but she lives in the local area.
Mr. JENNER. That is Mrs. Louise Latham?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes; but in any event, I was concerned, quite frankly, that
I might have referred him on a job, Mr. Oswald, on a job with the Texas
Depository and my office manager assured me that I had not, but he
said, "You did talk to him several times, what do you remember about
it?" "Did I make any written comments, good or bad about him?" And he
said, "No, you didn't." And I said, "Then my only recollection about
him was he was a nonentity, just another applicant who was neither
outstanding or, I mean--inadequate."
Mr. JENNER. He made no impression on you?
Mr. ADAMS. No.
Mr. JENNER. What kind of records are kept with respect to job
applicants, those who are seeking positions, and they are placed or not
placed, what kind of record would I expect to find if I looked?
Mr. ADAMS. Well, there are several--one a Lindex strip is at the
receptionist which purportedly has a listing of all of the applicants
who are currently registered with our office. Then, for each applicant
there are one or more application cards covering a primary code, an
occupational code which is that code in which we feel he is best
qualified, the additional cards being for secondary codes for other
jobs for which he might be qualified for or which he may have
performed in the past, so that there would be one or more application
cards, a Lindex strip, and the counseling records if the individual had
been counseled.
Mr. JENNER. Now, assuming Mrs. Latham assisted Lee Oswald in obtaining
a position, a record of some kind--some kind of a recordation of that
fact would be made?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, on the application--on the individual's application
card, the face gives essential information as to names, address,
telephone number, birthdate, height, weight, education, the job code to
which he has been assigned, the high school from which he graduated,
the college which he attended and/or which he graduated, special
skills which he may possess in the use of business machines, and any
hobbies which might be job oriented, such as skin diving and things of
that sort, and the back side shows the jobs the individual has held,
beginning with the most recent and going back to the most significant
job he has held.
Inside the folded card, one-half of the upper half is for comments
concerning availability of public or private transportation, the
minimum salary the individual is willing to accept, any restrictions or
qualifications the individual may place on employment.
The other half of the upper portion indicates whether or not the
individual has been counseled. It may include pertinent information
such as the individual has been under psychiatric care, has a Police
record, anything which might be necessary in discussing this individual
intelligently with an employer.
The bottom half lists the referrals or attempted referrals of this
individual for employment.
Each time an attempt is made to contact the individual, an entry will
be made indicating the date when the contact is attempted, the method,
that is, whether by telephone, by telephone message or by mail, the
date on which he was referred, if he was referred, or if he was not
referred, whether he refused the job or whether he was found not
qualified; if he was referred, whether or not he was hired; if he was a
claimant, whether or not--if he rejected the job--that information was
sent to the claims office indicating that he had rejected employment or
rejected an offer of employment, anything pertaining to this particular
job offer is shown on a given line or lines, as it might be.
Mr. JENNER. And are they now in the possession of TEC, records of that
character relating to Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. ADAMS. I don't know from my own knowledge, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would Mr. Sayre know that?
Mr. ADAMS. It is my belief that these records are in the hands of the
FBI or Secret Service, but he would know.
Mr. JENNER. Were photostatic copies made, do you know?
Mr. ADAMS. That, I don't know, sir. Apparently, I did talk to him on
the phone several times, because the card indicates that I had done so
and I do not recall.
Mr. JENNER. Well, do you recall when you were interviewed by Mr. Odum
of the FBI on the 27th of November 1963?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. At that time you appeared to have a recollection of a
telephone call from Oswald on October 8, in response to a message of
your own of October 7, 1963. Do you recall that incident?
Mr. ADAMS. No, sir; I couldn't say that I positively do. If the record
says I did, I did.
Mr. JENNER. Then, I take it, that a record of the transaction was made?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. If it occurred?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And you have no recollection independent of that record?
Mr. ADAMS. No, sir--if I might clarify that, sir, by saying that in
the case of an applicant with whom one has repeated dealings, whether
good or bad, these would stick. Otherwise, one talks to anywhere to
10 to 30 applicants a day, day in and day out, personally and by
telephone and with the exception of those applicants with whom I have
had extensive dealings either because they are problem cases or because
they are really outstanding good applicants, I don't remember that. If
confronted by one, I could be able to say, "Yes; I have talked to that
man," but otherwise I couldn't.
Mr. JENNER. You apparently indicated to Mr. Odum, a reference on your
part on October 8, to Solid State Electronics Co. of Texas, do you
recall referring him to the Solid State Electronics Co. on or about the
8th of October 1963?
Mr. ADAMS. I can recall having had that order because it was unusual
in the sense that I had not dealt with an order of that type before
from a company engaged in the sale of electronics parts who wanted an
individual who had had some knowledge of electronics or electronics
parts. Presumably, if I referred to--Mr. Oswald, it was because his
military or civilian background indicated he had had training in this
field.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any more about that incident?
Mr. ADAMS. No; I can't say I do, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what the nature of the job was?
Mr. ADAMS. As best I can recall, it was where--it was loosely what we
called a parts counterman.
Mr. JENNER. Parts counterman?
Mr. ADAMS. A sales clerk.
Mr. JENNER. A sales clerk?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes; in sales.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall what the salary was?
Mr. ADAMS. It seems to me it was quite good for the Dallas area. I
would guess it was in the neighborhood of in excess of $75 a week, it
seems.
Mr. JENNER. I take it that that reference was made to Oswald then by
telephone rather than his coming into your office?
Mr. ADAMS. My policy as a placement interviewer, sir, is this: If I
have once met an applicant and then there is not a long lapse until
such time as I have an opening to discuss with him, or on which to
refer him, I will refer him by telephone if I think he is otherwise
qualified.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall his coming into the office the 8th or the 9th
of October?
Mr. ADAMS. I couldn't honestly say that I do; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would this registration card have some entry in that
respect, if he came in?
Mr. ADAMS. Well, possibly. The policy in our office is that each month
an individual should be contacted either by phone or in person. If a
person is contacted more than once, either by phone or in person, only
the initial date for that month is shown. It is repetitive and takes up
a lot of unnecessary space.
Mr. JENNER. Does Burton-Dixie Co. awaken or refresh your recollection
in this connection?
Mr. ADAMS. Only to the extent that they are one of the employers with
whom I have dealt.
Mr. JENNER. Yes?
Mr. ADAMS. And, in making these referrals, I have found in my short
time with the Commission that it is not too wise to be bound entirely
by the employer's stated requirements. I can best explain this by
saying that as recently as yesterday I referred a young man on an order
which I had had for a week and on which I had made prior referrals of
individuals who, in my opinion, were at least as well-qualified and
certainly made a better appearance and yet this last individual was
the man who was hired. So, when I first determined this, I decided
that I would not certainly make wholesale referrals without regard to
the employer's requirements, but on the other hand, in any case where
I thought the individual was such that the employer might see in him
something that I did not see, I wouldn't take a chance. I would refer
him if I felt he met any or many of the employer's basic requirements.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall any incidents of any others in the agency who
sought to assist Oswald, of which you have any knowledge?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; subsequent to these incidents, I am aware that
other people in the Commission had talked to Mr. Oswald prior to
November 22d.
Mr. JENNER. But what you have stated is the extent of your contact with
him?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, and am I correct, that he was not employed or
hired by the Solid State Electronics Co. of Texas on your reference?
Mr. ADAMS. To the best of my knowledge he was not hired on any of the
jobs to which I referred him.
Mr. JENNER. And does the name Trans-Texas stimulate your recollection
as to any possible reference?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; about--in late October or early November,
Trans-Texas Airways called Mr. Roy----
Mr. JENNER. Who is Mr. Roy?
Mr. ADAMS. He is not the station manager, he is the--I really don't
know what his title is, but anyway, he deals with the people who are
more concerned with servicing the aircraft than with passengers.
Anyway, he advised me that the company was contemplating expansion and
he would need possibly as many as 12 or 14 ramp agents and--as they are
called by the airline industry--we call them baggage, cargo handlers,
and he gave me qualifications, minimum qualifications, to send out
those who met the qualifications.
Mr. JENNER. Was Lee Harvey Oswald one of those you sent out?
Mr. ADAMS. If the record indicates, he was.
Mr. JENNER. But here again you have no recollection beyond what the
record shows?
Mr. ADAMS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection as to salary, for example, as
compared with that that you mentioned--you mentioned some kind of a
figure, with respect to Solid State Electronics Co?
Mr. ADAMS. I think that the going rate of Trans-Texas then was $210 a
month plus overtime.
Mr. JENNER. Did Oswald report on that reference?
Mr. ADAMS. I don't know, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would it refresh your recollection if I told you that he
did not, and that he became employed by the Texas State Book Depository
on the 16th of October 1963?
Mr. ADAMS. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The incident to which you refer occurred the latter part of
October or the first part of November, that is with Trans-Texas?
Mr. ADAMS. As best I recall it; yes.
Mr. JENNER. I would like to talk to Mr. Sayre--what is the telephone
number over there?
Mr. ADAMS. It is Riverside 7-2071.
The unfortunate thing about it, as I said, about being a placement
interviewer is that unless there is something outstanding about the
individual or something appears in the record it is just another
applicant.
Mr. JENNER. You interview a good many people every day, day after day,
and unless something strikes you out of the ordinary with respect to a
particular job applicant or unemployed person, that makes it stand out
in your mind, you are unable to sort out or recall specifically?
Mr. ADAMS. Right. I could rattle off the names of half a dozen
applicants who are ex-convicts, alcoholics, or either recovered from
psychiatric treatment or who are presently undergoing psychiatric
treatment, or when I look at their record I see consistent "No hire" or
"Failed to accept employment," but these people will stick with me, but
if I recall, Mr. Oswald had not been registered too long or, beginning
with my contact--my contact with him renewed his relationship with our
placement office. In other words, as I try to visualize his card, I
don't see a whole card full of entries--just a few up at the top.
Mr. JENNER. There is one card for each job applicant?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes, sir; at least.
Mr. JENNER. And if he has been back and forth a couple, of times there
might be more than one card?
Mr. ADAMS. If he was coded. For instance, suppose he said, "I have been
a truck driver for 2 years." I will say, "Fine, you get an additional
code for truck driving," which is a 7 code, and this card, we would
either send with him to the industrial office for placing in their
files, or we would send it--he might say, "I will accept labor work,"
and we would say, "Fine, we will send a card up to Forrest Avenue or
to Irving," whichever is the closest to where he lives or to Dallas
West.
Or, he might say, "I have a degree in Economics," and we would say,
"Good, we will give you an "0" code and send it upstairs to the
professional office." So, conceivably, depending on the individual, he
could have a half a dozen cards.
In addition, if he had been job counseled, they would have a counseling
record.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, the employment commission, the Texas
Employment Commission, and presumably, the other 49 states, is not
in position to do any checking on people. The only way we get any
information, derogatory information, is either through the individual's
disclosing it voluntarily, or through an employer saying, "I sent this
man down for a truth verification test, and he busted it," and then we
would say, "Would you mind telling us what the information was, so that
we may not use this against the individual and try to find out what his
problem is and see if we can't help him with it." He might say, "No; I
don't care to do that," and then we would say, "Does it involve felony
or is it a matter of personality, or what?" And they might say, "There
is something odd about his personality," and we would say, "Thank you."
This is the only way we get any information and, of course, it
sometimes backfires unfortunately. Employers will assume mistakenly
that anybody we send is as pure as the driven snow, and they may or may
not be.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think of anything else at this time that might be
helpful to the Commission in this connection--what I am anxious to get
is the history of this man at the Texas Employment Commission.
Mr. ADAMS. Yes; I believe Mrs. Helen Cunningham counseled him. I
believed she counseled Mr. Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. Is she still employed by the Commission?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes. Mr. Sayre is also her boss.
Mr. JENNER. Maybe I can get both of them over here this afternoon and
take their deposition.
Mr. ADAMS. It is my personal opinion that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald is
more to be pitied than censored, because if she had only taken the kid
to the psychiatrist when they asked her to--of course, this might still
have happened, but then again it might not.
Mr. JENNER. And, of course, in a situation like this, Mr. Adams, there
are all kinds of "ifs": if somebody had done this, if only this had
been done.
Mr. ADAMS. Well, even the little contact that I had with him, I
thought--was there something there I should have noticed and if I start
letting this get on my back, I will start examining every applicant who
comes in--he may be a potential fiend, "I'll have to watch you," and
pretty soon I'll be talking to myself.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are always subject to the accusation of being a
meddler. It is pretty hard to say just where the scope of your probing
should go--a reasonable amount of probing should go and where you have
to hold down the gate.
Mr. ADAMS. The first I knew about it was when it came out in the paper
that he had been a claimant.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; for unemployment compensation?
Mr. ADAMS. Right, from this district or Fort Worth, I don't know which
one exactly.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, do you have an office over in Fort Worth?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have an office similar to this one, that is, that
aids persons to obtain employment?
Mr. ADAMS. Yes; the State is divided into districts. The Dallas
district is unique in that it encompasses only Dallas County. Out in
West Texas, I guess, the districts encompass maybe 20 or 30 counties.
Mr. JENNER. But Fort Worth's district--who is the general manager there?
Mr. ADAMS. I don't know, sir. I have heard his name, but I can't recall
it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the telephone number?
Mr. ADAMS. No, sir; I sure don't. Whenever we have dealings with them
at my level it is simply paperwork. You send a notice to them that we
have these jobs available and employers ask us to start signing out
from Dallas to find--to try to find someone, we'll say, in a 50-mile
radius, or in a 100-mile radius, as the case may be--it's all done by
paper, you see. I'm sure Mr. Sayre would know the people to contact
with them.
Whenever we do uncover any derogatory information, well, anything
which leads us to believe that the applicant is not--does not appear
to be the type of person that we should refer, we have no way--we are
precluded from making any written comment. I would just say, "See Adams
before it is turned over."
Mr. JENNER. And that means if an occasion arises to refer this man
or he makes an inquiry subsequently, then anybody reading the card
realizes that there might be something derogatory or at least something
special, and they should come to you and talk to you about it?
Mr. ADAMS. That's right; for instance, an employer will report that
he thinks an individual is a sex deviate or something of that sort.
Now, in the naivete of the Texas Employment Commission, I have made
an entry, "Employer reports that this individual appears to have
undesirable traits of character," and they say, "Oh, you can't put that
in."
Mr. JENNER. Off the record.
(At this point Counsel Jenner conversed by telephone to Mr. Sayre of
the Texas Employment office.)
Mr. JENNER. He said he turned over those records to the district office
and he is going to run them down for me this afternoon and call me back.
Mr. ADAMS. I remember reading the paper that on account of his having
applied for unemployment compensation, he made a trip to Corpus and
then to Mexico and came back--it was none of my business and I never
did pursue it with the Commission, but if he had nothing to draw on, he
would certainly have applied for his unemployment compensation and it
would have been recorded, whether here, Corpus Christi, or Fort Worth
or where--the Lord only knows--I don't know.
Mr. JENNER. That's all that occurs to me, sir, and I appreciate your
coming in and your help.
Mr. ADAMS. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful.
Mr. JENNER. Well, sometimes you people think you are not more helpful,
to use your expression, when, as a fact you are.
Mr. ADAMS. I hope so.
Mr. JENNER. It's hard to tell from your vantage point whether you are
or aren't, but the fact you appear here and tell us what you know is
always helpful. I appreciate it very much.
Mr. ADAMS. I know it is like the intelligence business in the service,
you take all the little pieces and piece them together, and you make a
picture.
Mr. JENNER. You have a right to read your deposition and to sign it, if
you see fit, and you also have the right to waive that privilege if you
wish.
Mr. ADAMS. I would like to see it and I will sign it.
Mr. JENNER. We will have it ready toward the end of this week or early
next week, and if you will call the U.S. attorney, Barefoot Sanders, he
will know whether it is ready for you to read and sign. Thank you very
much, sir.
Mr. ADAMS. Thank you.