Mr. JENNER. All right, that is 8 days later?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. It sounds like to me the first day I saw the boy, or
the second day.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; you are right.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "HPC" for my initials, and a "B" with a circle in it.
Mr. JENNER. Meaning what?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I'm sorry--I'm not certain as to why that "B" was
recorded there. We do use or did use, an A, B, C, D, E, F, for the
kinds of problem and it could have been that, but I am unsure of what
that entry means.
Mr. JENNER. What were your A-B-C problems?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. This gentleman is going to ask me to remember the
whole manual this afternoon.
"A" is little or no work experience, and entry into the labor force
basically, with no vocational choice.
"B" is an entry into the labor force or relatively so, or re-entry with
a questionable choice.
Mr. JENNER. You mean questionable choice in what sense?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That the applicant says, "I want to be a lawyer,"
and you say, "Are you ready, what training do you have, what is the
indication?"
Mr. JENNER. Your questionable choice, therefore, is a question on your
part as to his capability to attain that which he desires?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Which is an expressed desire, but you see, sir, I do
not have my basic counseling record among these papers and this is part
of the reason that I am uncertain here. If I had the comparable and
complete record, I could better answer the present question.
Mr. JENNER. What is your best recollection?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I have no definite recollection of what the boy asked
for, as far as an occupation is concerned.
Mr. JENNER. He wanted work immediately, you were also attempting to
determine what he was seeking ultimately and your judgment of his
capabilities to accomplish that which he sought ultimately; am I
correct?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes--but I again remind you that I did not attempt
with Oswald the full counseling service, because I placed emphasis on
the immediate with him.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's important to me.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, I'm sure it is.
Mr. JENNER. What is "C"?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. "C" is expressed change of occupation for a variety of
reasons.
Mr. JENNER. A desire to change whatever occupation he had been pursuing?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. And in that case it is presumed that the person is
fully qualified in an occupation from his work experience.
Mr. JENNER. If a counselor reached the conclusion that he was not
qualified or needed further training or you had any question about it
as to the other occupation or the change of occupation the applicant
desired, would you then classify him under "B" rather than "C"?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir; because as a counselor, I am
applicant-and-individual oriented, and I guess as a counselor also, I
work under the philosophy that the individual has some choices of his
own and the best that I can do is give him information, use what tools
and what knowledge I have gotten out of training and experience to
help him to make the best choices, but the decisions basically are the
applicant's.
Mr. JENNER. Did you say there was a "D" classification?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; there is a "D".
Mr. JENNER. What is that?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I'm sorry, I cannot bring it to mind at the moment.
There is an "E" and an "F" and a "G".
The "F" is emotional problems, which were not apparent in this young
man to me in the few times that I saw him. He was well contained, well
spoken, and did not give any information, as I recall, except what I
referred to.
As I see his mother on television, this interviewee seems to me, and I
have to use that verb, that there is a certain same kind of firmness in
the individual there, and certain capabilities there, and to use words
well.
Mr. JENNER. On the part of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you notice any personality quirks or qualities or
attributes in Marguerite Oswald as you observed her on television and
her son, Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is a driving in the woman that I did not see
in the son. There is a strident of voice in the mother as she comes
through to me on television that was not in the son. He was very
self-contained.
I didn't probe for information because I was trying to meet the
immediate need and to deal with the employment problem, only, sir, and
then we also have workload and time pressures on us, as you well know
in any job there are that.
We have applicants who are waiting to be interviewed and I guess now,
with hindsight, I'm sorry that I didn't--but that's hindsight.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have capabilities in that area?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Sir?
Mr. JENNER. Do you have capabilities in the area of inquiry into
personality--when I said "capabilities"--first, do you have any
training in that area? You necessarily have some experience, I am
sure--formal training, let me put it that way.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I'm going to get into your overall training in a little bit.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I hesitate to say this, because the pressures are
with us in the Texas Employment Commission, to do a limited job on the
vocational employment thing, because that is our emphasis and that is
as right, but I have to say that I think a life is a unit and that
you can't take a slice out of it and look at it alone and be very
effective, nor that a human being can cut away from all his past, nor
his associates, nor the other things that are affecting him and so I
try to approach an individual, when time permits and when it seems like
it might be effective in his vocational life, to get some information
about other parts of his life.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I got you off on this because I asked you
what the "B" in the circle meant--may we go back to that?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I thought I had answered completely.
Mr. JENNER. I think you have, but as I say, I got you off on it when we
reached that point--I interrupted you.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The entries on the application form, E-13 (Cunningham
Exhibit No. 1) below "do not write below this line"--none are in my
handwriting and they are not counseling records. They are referral
placement records.
Mr. JENNER. Now, does the recording there indicate a reference of a job
to the applicant and the result of that reference--what happened after
the reference was made?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The record is not absolutely complete, but in
general--yes--and some line entries--yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would that form necessarily indicate if the applicant
refused the position as distinguished from the possibility, for
example, that the employer, when he interviewed the applicant,
concluded that he did not wish to employ him?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is some indication of each, yes.
Mr. JENNER. Now, taking those entries, would you comment on each of
them in that respect, taking them seriatically and tell us about it.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. On the first line entry, in the column headed "Call"
there is a dash. That indicates to me that the applicant was not called
in, that he was in the office and referred to the placement section. On
the same line, under the word "referred" there is a date--10-8, which
is struck through, and above that is written "10-10" and then under the
heading, "Employer or agency," I am reading the entry there, "Harrel
and Harrington, architects;" under job title or purpose, the word
"Messenger"; under the abbreviation for duration, the letter "P" which
indicates a permanent job; under "pay", I am reading $1.50.
Mr. JENNER. Per hour?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The hour is not indicated--that is inferred. There
is no entry under "results". On the same line under "remarks" are the
initials "LL".
Mr. JENNER. Whose initials are those?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Placement worker who was with us formerly, whose name
is Louise Latham.
Mr. JENNER. She was with you until yesterday?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Well, I knew it has been an off again and on again
situation--so you are more current than I about even in my own agency.
Shall I begin on the next line?
Mr. JENNER. Now, as far as that reference is concerned, there is
nothing recorded as to what the result of that reference was?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That is right. After having seen it, my recollection
was that the boy was not hired.
Mr. JENNER. That was the decision of the employer?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; and that is the information that would have
come through me, either from talking to the placement worker or to
Oswald on a second interview, you see?
Mr. JENNER. The cause for that doesn't appear--of course, it may be
that when he got there the job was filled or anyone of a number of
reasons?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Since it is a blank entry, the applicant could not
have reported, or the employer had rejected him, or he had seen other
applicants and chose from them.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Let's go to the next line.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Under the column "Call"--10-26-62.
Mr. JENNER. That indicates what?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That he was called by telephone message, because there
is a "TM" above the date.
Mr. JENNER. That means "telephone message"?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I think that I am correct that that is the meaning
there. Under the "referred"--NRO.
Mr. JENNER. What does that mean?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. No referral offered.
Mr. JENNER. What does that mean?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. That in trying to fill an order of an employer, the
placement interviewer called in a given number of applicants, in
trying to find one who would meet his specifications after reviewing
application cards (referring to Form E-13; Cunningham Exhibit No. 1),
and I would read it that the applicant replied that he came to the
placement worker, that in the discussion the placement worker made the
decision not to refer him.
Mr. JENNER. Is there a recording there of what the prospective
reference would have been?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes--employer agency: The Dallas Transit.
Mr. JENNER. For what position?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Messenger, and I cannot read something in parentheses
after that--"permanent duration"--I judge it to be $175 a month.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is nothing in the result column.
Mr. JENNER. Whose initials?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I'm sorry, I cannot distinguish them.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. However, there is the date--10-30, and I can't read
what is above the date--10-30.
Mr. JENNER. Is that on the same line?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Yes; I think.
Mr. JENNER. Let me see if I can read it--could that first word be
"working" and then there is some initial following 10-30, the first of
which appears to be "W", the next is "T", and the next is "F".
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. I wouldn't risk a guess at either one of those, sir,
because I am not acquainted with this handwriting and it is not mine.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Go to the next line, please.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. The next line--there is a dash under the word "Call",
"referred"--there is a date 10-12, there are no other entries on that
line.
Mr. JENNER. So, what does that mean to you?
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Well, it can mean a number of things.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. There is no indication on the front of the card to
indicate that the applicant was in the office at that time. It can be
that someone started an entry and never completed it, and I am sorry, I
just don't know.
Mr. JENNER. Okay, let's get to the next line.
Mrs. CUNNINGHAM. Under "called"--the change of the year is indicated by
1963 having been written.