The testimony of Francis L. Martello was taken on April 7-8, 1964, at
the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans,
La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Francis L. Martello, having been first duly sworn, was examined and
testified as follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal
staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination
of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the
testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted
to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963
and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week advising you that
we would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony,
and that enclosed with the letter were copies of Executive Order No.
11130, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137, as well as a copy of
the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking
of testimony of witnesses. Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. The general area of our inquiry of you, Lieutenant
Martello, relates to the information received by the Commission that
you interviewed Lee Harvey Oswald some time in August of 1963 after he
had been arrested by the New Orleans Police Department as a result of
his activities in connection with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
Before I get into the details of that testimony, however, would you
please state your full name for the record?
Mr. MARTELLO. Francis L. Martello, lieutenant, New Orleans Police
Department.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your residence, sir?
Mr. MARTELLO. 7921 Maple Street, New Orleans, La.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the New Orleans Police
Department?
Mr. MARTELLO. Fifteen years and nine months.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where were you born?
Mr. MARTELLO. In New Orleans.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have resided in New Orleans basically all of your
life? Is that right?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. What assignments have you had with the New Orleans Police
Department generally over the period that you have been----
Mr. MARTELLO. For 6 years I was assigned to patrol, precincts, and
districts. For the next 6 years I was assigned as an instructor at
the New Orleans Police Academy. For the following 2 years I was the
deputy commander of the Intelligence Division of the New Orleans Police
Department, and since that time I have been a platoon commander in the
First District Police Station.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did there come a time in August of 1963 when you heard or
heard of or became acquainted with Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. He was arrested on Canal Street on
a Friday, the Friday prior to my interview, and upon coming to work on
Saturday morning, as a routine matter I checked the arrest records,
noted the charge, observed some placards marked as evidence, saw that
they were signed by the Fair Play for Cuba [Committee], and decided to
interview the person who I later found out was Lee Harvey Oswald, the
subject who was arrested.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you subsequently interview Oswald?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was this a part of an official investigation conducted by
the New Orleans Police Department?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; it was. It was to ascertain primarily that all
parties, all of us law enforcement agencies, that would be interested
would be notified; also to ascertain if the various agencies within our
department were notified, and also to obtain any information that would
be of value to the Department concerning any future demonstrations that
this person or persons affiliated with him may perform in the city, so
that we would be prepared for such eventualities.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the time you interviewed Oswald, were you acting as
platoon commander of the first district?
Mr. MARTELLO. At that time I was the deputy commander of the first
district, which was a position whereby I was to assist the captain in
all phases of police work involving the first district area.
Mr. LIEBELER. And the first district of the New Orleans Police
Department was the district in which this difficulty in which Oswald
was involved occurred? Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have various headquarters of the New Orleans
Police Department broken down by district?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you have a station house for the first district and
for other districts?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald confined in the stationhouse for the first
district at that time?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. He was confined in the first
district, which is located at 501 North Rampart Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you make any notes of your interview with Oswald at
the time you interviewed him?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; I did. I made a personal history background
investigation, which is a common practice and when dealing with any
person affiliated with any organization that demonstrates in the
city, and also to attempt to ascertain their ideologies and find out
in what area they would most likely demonstrate, on what side of the
fence, so to speak, as we call it, and see whether or not they were
potential agitators or troublemakers. This would assist the department
in planning for future demonstrations by these persons if they so
demonstrated.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you interviewed Oswald and made these notes,
it is my understanding that while you did not prepare a memorandum
on your interview at that time, you subsequently, that is, after the
assassination, on the basis of the notes you did make at the time you
interviewed Oswald, you prepared a memorandum setting forth the results
of your interview with Oswald. Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you tell us approximately when you did interview him?
Mr. MARTELLO. [referring to notes]. I interviewed Oswald at 10 a.m. on
Saturday, August 10, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. That would have been the day following his arrest? Is
that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. August 9 would have been a Friday? Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes; that is correct. The day of his arrest was on
Friday, August 9, 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. I also understand that you provided a copy of the
memorandum that you did prepare to the FBI? Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. Originally--wait--originally I was contacted by the U.S.
Secret Service on the morning after the assassination of the President
at approximately 3 o'clock in the morning, and I was interviewed
concerning what information I had developed at the time of the
interview.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember which agent of the Secret Service did
talk to you?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes; I remember something like Querie. No; I believe it
was Mr. Vial, V-i-a-l, who originally spoke to me, and since that time
there were numerous phone calls to my home and at work with various
members of the U.S. Secret Service who spoke to me concerning the
interview that I had with Harvey Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you also turn over to the Secret Service or to the
FBI the pamphlets and other materials that had been found in Oswald's
possession at the time of his arrest?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. I turned that information over to
the Secret Service.
Mr. LIEBELER. Then you subsequently prepared the memorandum to which we
have already referred, and you provided a copy of that memorandum to
the Secret Service or to the FBI? Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. [Exhibiting document to witness.] I want to show you a
copy of your memorandum, and I will ask you if you yourself have a copy
of your memorandum with you.
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a copy of your memorandum and ask you
to examine it and tell me whether or not that is a copy of your
memorandum. I show you a copy in the form of a report of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, and I call your attention to the fact that it
is the report of Special Agent John L. Quigley, which indicates that on
November 29, 1963, Agent Quigley did interview you, and he set forth in
the memorandum, starting at the bottom of page 1, what purports to be
the text of the memorandum which you prepared concerning your interview
of Oswald. Would you examine that portion of your report and tell me
whether or not that is or appears to you to be a correct copy of the
memorandum that you prepared?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes; it is.
Mr. LIEBELER. At this point we will physically incorporate into the
record the memorandum of Lieutenant Martello, the report to which
Lieutenant Martello and I have been referring. I provide the reporter
with a copy for that purpose.
(The report referred to by counsel is here made part of the record:)
"About 10 a.m. on Saturday, August 10, 1963, I observed a placard
and handbills which had been placed into evidence against an accused
person. This placard contained information concerning the Fair Play for
Cuba Committee. I determined that a subject by the name of LEE HARVEY
OSWALD was arrested on Friday, August 9, 1963 when he was passing out
handbills on Canal Street and was carrying this placard about his
person.
"Prior to being assigned to the First District, I had worked with the
Intelligence Unit for two years and since I was generally familiar
with various groups and organizations that demonstrate or picket in
the city, I decided I would question this individual to see if I could
develop any information which would be of value and to ascertain if all
interested parties had been notified.
"I requested the doorman to bring LEE HARVEY OSWALD into the interview
room. I then took the material which was to be used as evidence into
this room. At the same time I reviewed the arrest record on OSWALD and
determined that while he was distributing Fair Play for Cuba literature
on the street he became involved in a disturbance with CELSO MACARIO
HERNANDEZ, CARLOS JOSE BRINGUIER and MIGUEL MARIANO CRUZ.
"When OSWALD was brought into the office, I introduced myself to him as
Lieutenant FRANCIS L. MARTELLO and I was in uniform at the time.
"I asked OSWALD if he had any identification papers. At this time
OSWALD produced his wallet. Upon my request, he removed the papers and
I examined them. He had in his wallet a number of miscellaneous papers,
cards and identification items. The only ones that I felt were of any
significance were the following, which I made note of:
"1. Social Security Card bearing #433-54-3937 in the name of LEE HARVEY
OSWALD.
"2. Selective Service draft card in the name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD
bearing #41-114-395-32, classification--4A. (I do not know what draft
board was registered with.)
"3. Card bearing name LEE HARVEY OSWALD reflecting he was a member of
the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; address listed as 799 Broadway, New
York 3, New York; telephone #ORegon 4-8295, headquarters for Fair Play
for Cuba Committee. Card was signed by V. T. LEE, Executive Secretary;
card issued 5/28/63.
"4. Card for the New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee in name of LEE HARVEY OSWALD signed by A. J. HIDELL, Chapter
President, issued June 6, 1963.
"The notes of my interview reflect that OSWALD gave his date of birth
as October 18, 1938 at New Orleans, Louisiana; that he served three
years in the U.S. Marine Corps and stated he was honorably discharged
on July 17, 1959 from Santa Ana, California. His wife's name was
MARINO _PROSSA_, a white female, age 21. OSWALD stated he had one
daughter, JUNE LEE OSWALD, white female, 17 months of age, and he had
been residing at 4907 Magazine Street with his wife and daughter for
the past four months. OSWALD said that since 1959 he resided at 4709
Mercedes Street in Fort Worth, Texas and had also lived in Arlington,
Texas. OSWALD said his mother's name was MARGARET OSWALD, his father,
ROBERT LEE OSWALD, being deceased. He told me he had two brothers,
ROBERT OSWALD, living in Fort Worth, Texas, and JOHN OSWALD, Arlington,
Texas. He also stated he lived somewhere on Exchange Place in New
Orleans but could not remember the address, and that he had attended
Beauregard Junior High School and Warren Easton High School, both in
New Orleans, and that he attended Riegeala West Elementary School in
Fort Worth, Texas. OSWALD told me he had moved to New Orleans from Fort
Worth about four months ago.
"When questioned about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, OSWALD stated
that he had been a member for three months. I asked how he had become
affiliated with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee and he stated he
became interested in that Committee in Los Angeles, California in 1958
while in the U.S. Marine Corps. The facts as to just how he first
became interested in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee while in the
Marine Corps are vague, however I recall that he said he had obtained
some Fair Play for Cuba Committee literature and had gotten into some
difficulty in the Marine Corps for having this literature.
"OSWALD was asked how many members of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
were in the New Orleans Chapter and he stated there were 35. I asked
him to identify the members of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New
Orleans and he refused to give names of the members or any identifying
data regarding them. OSWALD was asked why he refused and he said that
this was a minority group holding unpopular views at this time and
it would not be beneficial to them if he gave their names. OSWALD
was asked approximately how many people attended meetings of the
New Orleans Chapter of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee and he said
approximately five attended the meetings, which were held once a month.
He was asked where and he said at various places in the city. He was
asked specifically at what addresses or locations were the meetings
held and stated that the meetings were held on Pine Street. He was
asked at whose residence the meetings were held and he refused to give
any further information. It should be noted at this time during prior
investigation conducted, while I was a member of the Intelligence Unit,
information was developed that Fair Play for Cuba Committee literature
was found in the 1000 block of Pine Street, New Orleans, which was
near the residence of Dr. LEONARD REISSMAN, a professor at Tulane
University. This investigation was conducted by me.
"As I remember, Dr. REISSMAN was reported to be a member of the New
Orleans Council of Peaceful Alternatives which is a 'ban the bomb'
group recently established in the city and had conducted meetings and
two or three demonstrations in the city. Knowing that Dr. REISSMAN was
reportedly a member of the New Orleans Council of Peaceful Alternatives
I thought there might be a tie between this organization and the Fair
Play for Cuba Committee.
"When OSWALD stated that meetings of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
had been held on Pine Street, the name of Dr. REISSMAN came to mind.
I asked OSWALD if he knew Dr. REISSMAN or if he held meetings at Dr.
REISSMAN's house. OSWALD did not give me a direct answer to this
question, however I gathered from the expression on his face and what
appeared to be an immediate nervous reaction that there was possibly a
connection between Dr. REISSMAN and OSWALD; this, however, is purely an
assumption on my own part and I have nothing on which to base this. I
also asked OSWALD if he knew a Dr. FORREST E. LA VIOLETTE, a professor
at Tulane University. I asked him this question because I remembered
that LA VIOLETTE allegedly had possession of Fair Play for Cuba
literature during the year 1962. I cannot remember any further details
about this nor do I have any information that he is or was connected
with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans. OSWALD became
very evasive in his answers and would not divulge any information
concerning the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, where the group met, or
the identities of the members.
"OSWALD was then asked what religion he practiced and he stated he was
a Lutheran and also that he was presently unemployed but had worked
at William B. Reily Coffee Company, New Orleans, about three months,
working on heavy machinery and earned $60 per week. He worked from May
to July 17, 1963 at that company. He further stated that he had worked
for Jax Brewery approximately 1-1/2 months ago.
"I asked him again about the members of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee in New Orleans and why the information was such a big secret;
that if had nothing to hide, he would give me the information. OSWALD
said one of the members of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New
Orleans was named 'John' and that this individual went to Tulane
University. He refused to give any more information concerning the Fair
Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans.
"Since he did not appear to be particularly receptive at this time, the
interview was concluded and he was returned to the cell block. Prior to
entering the cell block, OSWALD was again allowed to use the telephone.
"Several hours later after OSWALD was interviewed by a Special Agent of
the Federal Bureau of Investigation, a white female came to the station
and identified herself as Mrs. _MURAT_, who stated she was a relative
of OSWALD and lived on France Street. She stated she wanted to know the
charge against OSWALD and I told her, explaining to her the procedure
whereby OSWALD could be released. She became very reluctant to become
involved in the release of OSWALD as she stated since he was involved
with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, she did not want to get mixed
up with it in any way. I spoke to her concerning OSWALD's background
and she stated OSWALD had a hard time coming up insofar as his family
life was concerned and she felt that this had a direct bearing on his
actions and that he had gone to Russia and stayed over there for a few
years; he married while in Russia and came back to the United States
with his wife. She stated OSWALD did not allow anything but Russian to
be spoken in his home. She was asked why he did not allow English to be
spoken and she related she had spoken to OSWALD'S wife about this and
she said this was his desire. She further stated she had asked OSWALD'S
wife if she liked America and the wife answered 'Yes I do' but said
her husband (OSWALD) did not like America. I did not question her any
further.
"After Mrs. _MURAT_ left, I decided to further question OSWALD and had
him again brought out of the cell to me. I then asked if he had given
me all of the needed information about his background and he said he
had. I asked him if he lived in Russia and he stated that somebody
had told me this. He then admitted he had lived in Russia for 2-1/2
years, going there by 'slow boat to Europe.' I asked him how he got
over there and he related he left Fort Worth, Texas, stayed in New
Orleans a few days and then took the 'slow boat to Europe.' He took a
tour of Europe and wound up in Russia. He lived in Moscow and Minsk,
Russia and told me he lived there from October, 1959 to July, 1962. I
asked him if his wife was Russian and he said yes. He said her true
name was MARINO _PROSSA_ and that it was an abbreviation of her name,
MARINO PROSSAKAYA; he said she was an alien M-1. I then asked him if
he was a communist and he said he was not. I asked him if he was a
socialist and he said 'guilty.' We then spoke at length concerning the
philosophies of communism, socialism and America. He said he was in
full accord with the book, Das Kapital, which book was written by KARL
MARX. I know that this book condemns the American way of government in
entirety. I asked him if he thought that the communist way of life was
better than the American way of life and he replied there was not true
communism in Russia. He said that Marx was a socialist and although
communism is attributed to MARX, that MARX was not a communist but a
socialist. He stated this was the reason he did not consider himself
to be a communist. I asked him what his opinion was of the form of
communism in Russia since he had lived there for two years and he
replied 'It stunk.' He said they have 'fat stinking politicians over
there just like we have over here' and that they do not follow the
great concepts of KARL MARX, that the leaders have everything and the
people are still poor and depressed. I asked OSWALD why he would not
allow members of his family to learn English as this would be required
to educate his children and communicate with people. He stated the
reason why he did this was because he hated America and he did not want
them to become 'Americanized' and that his plans were to go back to
Russia. He stated he had already applied to the State Department for
a visa to go back by using the excuse that his wife was a Russian. I
asked him what he thought about President JOHN F. KENNEDY and NIKITA
KHRUSHCHEV. He said he thought they got along very well together. I
then asked him if he had to place allegiance or make a decision between
Russia or America, which he would choose and he said 'I would place
my allegiance at the foot of democracy.' I then asked him if he would
consider himself a 'student of the world,' explaining that I meant by
this a person who attempts to find a Utopia on earth and that he said
he could be classified as such an individual. I asked him if he had any
religious convictions and whether he believed in God since KARL MARX
did not believe in God. I was trying to find out if he was an atheist.
His answer to me was that he was christened as a Lutheran but that
he has not followed any religion since youth. I asked him if he was
an agnostic and he said he could be classified 'as a Marxist in his
beliefs.' I then spoke to him about the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
again and asked him if he knew that CASTRO had admitted that he was
a Marxist-Leninist and he said he did. He was then asked if he truly
believed CASTRO was really interested in the welfare of the Cuban
people and he replied that he was not going to discuss the merits and
demerits of CASTRO but was primarily concerned with the poor people
of Cuba and that if this country would have good relations with the
poor people of Cuba and quit worrying about CASTRO, that was his main
concern; he stated this was the reason he was interested in the Fair
Play for Cuba Committee.
"OSWALD was then returned to the cell block.
"I then took my notes, along with several copies of the literature of
OSWALD, and placed them in a file folder, in the file cabinet.
"The day after the assassination of President JOHN F. KENNEDY, Mr.
ADRIAN G. VIAL, U.S. Secret Service, who had spoken to me earlier
at about 3 a.m. Saturday morning, November 23, 1963, wherein he had
obtained information regarding my interview with OSWALD, came to the
First District Station on Saturday, November 23, 1963 at about 3 p.m.
and told me the Secret Service was conducting an official investigation
regarding the assassination of the President of the United States. At
the outset of the interview I got out the original file folder on LEE
HARVEY OSWALD, opened it and gave Mr. VIAL all of the literature I had
obtained from OSWALD, which consisted of some pamphlets, leaflets and
booklets put out by the Fair Play for Cuba Committee headquarters. Upon
going through these pamphlets I discovered a photograph of LEE HARVEY
OSWALD which appeared to be a passport photograph, and a small piece of
white paper containing handwritten notes on same. This photograph and
paper had inadvertently become misplaced with the literature during the
interview I had with OSWALD. This piece of paper, which was folded over
twice and was about 2" by 3" in size, contained some English writing
and some writing which appeared to me to be in a foreign language which
I could not identify. Before I gave this paper to Mr. VIAL, I made a
copy of the information, which is as follows: [See Commission Exhibit
No. 827.]
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form an opinion during the time that you
interviewed Oswald as to whether or not he was telling you the truth
about the matters that you questioned him about and reported in your
memorandum?
Mr. MARTELLO. He did give me the impression that--in the majority of
the interview--that it was the truth.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now specifically--off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. In your report you indicated that Oswald told you that
he had become interested in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in Los
Angeles, Calif., in 1958 while in the U.S. Marine Corps. Is that
correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have the feeling that he was telling you the
truth about that particular aspect of the interview, or do you have any
recollection as to that specific aspect of it?
Mr. MARTELLO. I wouldn't know exactly, to my recollection, whether or
not he was being truthful in that particular area.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the next paragraph--go ahead--are you through?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the next paragraph of your report, you indicate that
Oswald told you that there were about 35 members of the Fair Play for
Cuba Committee here in New Orleans. Did you have any reason to question
that statement?
Mr. MARTELLO. I didn't believe it was a true statement because of the
fact that there was very little activity, to my knowledge, of the
Fair Play for Cuba Committee in the city of New Orleans, and since
it was such a new organization, or which appeared to me to be a new
organization in the city, it didn't seem likely there would be 35
members in the community.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever become aware of the existence of any other
member of the group in New Orleans----
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Other than Oswald?
Mr. MARTELLO. No; other than information that had been developed that
there were some possible connections. However, there was no basis in
fact that any other person, to my knowledge, was a member of the Fair
Play for Cuba Committee. This particular man, Oswald, was the first
person that I have come in contact with that I knew for a fact stated
he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee.
Mr. LIEBELER. He is not only the first person you came in contact with
who indicated he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, but
he is the only one that you ever saw or heard of in the city of New
Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. After this affair with Oswald, as far as you know, there
was no other activity by the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New
Orleans? Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. The only other activity that I could recall was a passing
out of leaflets. Again this was by Oswald, and that was the only other
time I have known of any activities by this group.
Mr. LIEBELER. You know that Oswald appeared on a radio program
broadcast over WDSU and appeared briefly on a television broadcast over
the same station in connection with his activities?
Mr. MARTELLO. I have read an account in the local newspaper to that
effect. However, I did not hear the radio broadcast or see the TV
program.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was that account in the paper before or after the
assassination? Do you remember?
Mr. MARTELLO. That was before the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER. Your report refers to a professor at Tulane University
by the name of Dr. Leonard Reissman. Did the department, to your
knowledge, conduct any investigation of Dr. Reissman in an attempt to
associate him with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or to determine
whether or not he was associated with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee
here in New Orleans?
Mr. MARTELLO. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any personal knowledge of the background of
Dr. Reissman, other than as set forth in your memorandum?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what he teaches at Tulane University?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Further on in your report there is a reference to another
professor at Tulane by the name of La Violette, and you indicate on
that you had some recollection that this professor allegedly had
possession of Fair Play for Cuba literature in 1962. Do you remember
any of the details of that?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any investigation conducted of this particular
professor in an attempt to determine whether he was associated with
Oswald in any way?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; there was not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you in any way that he himself
knew either of these two professors or any other professor at Tulane
University, or had ever had anything to do with them or with other
professors?
Mr. MARTELLO. He did not indicate by name, but there was a meeting
place on Pine Street, the 1000 block of Pine Street in New Orleans,
where there were meetings held.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is meetings of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What kind of meetings?
Mr. MARTELLO. Just meetings by other groups. There was no indication of
any names, but I had asked him if he held his meetings on Pine Street,
and he reflected--only in gesture--that there was some, or appeared to
be some, connection between the two, but it is mere speculation upon my
part.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't indicate one way or the other, directly or
indirectly, that this was the case?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. From your memorandum it appears that Oswald told you that
he had worked for the Jax Brewery about 1-1/2 months prior to the time
of the interview. Did you make any check with the Jax Brewing Co. to
determine whether or not this was a true statement?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are unable to state at this time whether it is true
or false that Oswald worked at the Jax Brewery?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir. I am unable to state that as a fact.
Mr. LIEBELER. You also indicate that you terminated your interview with
Oswald, and he was permitted to use the telephone, apparently as a
result of which a Mrs. Murat--spelled M-u-r-a-t in the memorandum, but
I believe it is correctly spelled M-u-r-r-e-t----
Mr. MARTELLO. That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Appeared at the station. Did you personally talk to this
woman who came to the station?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir; I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you set forth in your memorandum the statements made
by Mrs. Murret and the position that she took with regard to this whole
thing, and that is a correct summary of the events that occurred with
regard to Mrs. Murret, is it not?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you form any impression of this woman's feelings
about Oswald or her attitude toward this whole event?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; I did. She gave me the impression that she
wanted to help him and she didn't want to become involved, due to the
affiliation, as he stated he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba,
and she was leery on becoming involved in obtaining his release. I
explained to her the release procedure whereby, if she desired to
assist him in being released from jail by parole or bond and she didn't
want to become involved in the release procedure--but she did give
me the impression that she was interested in him, as a relative, I
imagine.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether or not she subsequently did involve
herself in Oswald's release?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I did not know if she did become involved in his
release. I don't think she did, because during the second interview
with Lee Harvey Oswald I allowed him to use the telephone in the
captain's office where he called someone, some male, white male, or
some male. I don't know who he spoke to, but obviously his attempt to
get any assistance from Mrs. Murret was unsuccessful.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mrs. Murret also told you that Oswald had at one time
been in the Soviet Union, did she not?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you subsequently questioned Oswald concerning
this matter, did you?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in your memorandum you indicate that you had asked
Oswald what his opinion was of the form of communism in Russia, and he
replied that it stunk? Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. That did in fact occur? Is that right?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did Oswald indicate to you any other attitudes that he
had toward the Soviet Union, or did he particularize or go into more
detail as to why he was dissatisfied with his stay in the Soviet Union?
Mr. MARTELLO. Other than what I have in the memorandum where he stated
that the people were still poor and depressed and that the present form
of communism was not what it should be, the ideals, as he stated, were
not in fact the true conditions in Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now your memorandum also indicates that you asked Oswald
why he would not permit members of his family to learn the English
language, and the memorandum indicates that Oswald said the reason why
he did not so permit them was because he hated America and he did not
want his family to become Americanized since he planned to go back to
Russia. Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And Oswald did tell you that, did he not?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. We have down here a statement, on the one hand, that
as far as Oswald is concerned the system in Russia, to use his word,
"stunk," and, on the other hand, he said that he hated America and
had indicated a desire to return to Russia. Do you remember how he
presented these ideas, and did he seem to be equally convinced as to
both these propositions, or did he display any emotion concerning
either one of these propositions, or just what was his general attitude?
Mr. MARTELLO. His general attitude was, he stated that he believed in a
socialistic form of government and that in choosing between America and
Russia, he gave me the impression that he would choose the lesser of
the two evils, in his opinion.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he indicate which, in his opinion, was the lesser of
the two evils?
Mr. MARTELLO. From the way he spoke, the impression I received, it
appeared to me that he felt that Russia was the lesser of the two evils.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he express this idea with great forcefulness, or just
sort of a "pox on both your houses" fashion, that really it was just
too ridiculous, and that sort of thing?
Mr. MARTELLO. With a nonchalant attitude. He was a very cool speaker. I
don't know too much of his formal education. I read an account in the
newspaper about it, but from the way he spoke, it was quite obvious
that he had done a heck of a lot of reading in his lifetime, and his
approach was academic, more or less theories but with no aggressiveness
or emotional outbursts in any way, shape, or form. It was just a very
calm conversation we had, and there was no emotion involved whatsoever.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he show any hesitancy about expressing these ideas to
you as a member of the police department?
Mr. MARTELLO. None whatsoever, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. He didn't seem to be bothered by you or afraid of you, or
anything like that?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; none whatsoever. I generally try to establish a
rapport with any group that would demonstrate in the city, which was
one of the objectives I had with Oswald. If in the future he would
demonstrate, why, I could speak to him. It is a lot easier when you
know somebody than when you don't, and they may comply with a request
rather than the ultimates of the law.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, your memorandum also indicates that you asked Oswald
what he thought about President Kennedy and Premier Khrushchev, and
the memorandum also indicates that Oswald said that he thought they
got along very well together. What was his attitude when he made that
remark? Tell us as much as you can remember of the background of that
aspect of your conversation.
Mr. MARTELLO. The reason I asked that question was again to get his
feelings on where his loyalty would rest between America and Russia,
and it was just another way of asking the same question. He gave me
the impression that he seemed to favor President Kennedy more than he
did Khrushchev in his statement. This is unusual, and I couldn't quite
understand his reason for this reaction, as all of his thoughts seemed
to go into the direction of the Socialist or Russian way of life, but
he showed in his manner of speaking that he liked the President, the
impression I got, or, if he didn't like him, of the two he disliked,
he disliked the President the least. He is a very peculiar type of an
individual, which is typical of quite a few of the many demonstrators
that I have handled during the period of 2 years while in the
Intelligence Division. They seemed to be trying to find themselves or
something. I am not expert in the field or anything, not trying to go
out of my bounds, but quite a few of them, after lengthy interviews you
find that they have some peculiarities about their thinking that does
not follow logically with their movements or their action.
Mr. LIEBELER. And this attitude that Oswald demonstrated toward the
President is an example of that sort of thing? Is that correct?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. It didn't seem to fit in with the rest of his statements?
Mr. MARTELLO. Didn't seem to fit in.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any more specifically or in any more
detail just what the conversation concerning Kennedy was?
Mr. MARTELLO. It would only be vaguely at this time, but it was in
the general areas of leadership of the President in comparison to the
leadership of Khrushchev, how each was leading the various countries,
and again an analogy or comparison of the two forms of government,
which one he thought was running it the best, but we didn't go into
this at any great length.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, your recollection is quite clear that, in spite of
the fact that Oswald demonstrated a general inclination to favor the
Soviet Union and its institutions, he did in spite of that indicate a
preference for President Kennedy as opposed to Premier Khrushchev?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And that he in no way demonstrated any animosity or ill
feelings toward President Kennedy?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; he did not. At no time during the interview with
Oswald did he demonstrate any type of aggressiveness in any way, shape,
or form, other than his demonstration on Canal Street with the picket
sign.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you consider whether Oswald was prone to violence or
was a violent kind of person?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir; I did not, for the simple reason that when he
had made the friendship of the people with the anti-Castro groups in
the city and offered them assistance, and when they saw him on Canal
Street with pro-Castro signs they became insulting and abusive to the
point of becoming violent toward him, and he never reacted to the
action that was being directed toward him.
Mr. LIEBELER. These anti-Castro characters attempted to provoke Oswald
into some kind of physical conflict, did they not, as a matter of fact?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he didn't respond?
Mr. MARTELLO. That is correct, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you eventually learn what became of this case, how it
was disposed of in court?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; the next day, the following Monday. The
following Monday I went to court, Municipal Court, and I heard the
evidence in the case. He was charged--all of them were charged with
creating a scene, which is a typical municipal charge used in minor
disturbances. It expedites everything much nicer, and there was
no--there wasn't any detailed information given other than what he was
charged with. The judge found him guilty and gave him, I believe, $10
or 10 days, or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether Oswald pleaded guilty or not
guilty?
Mr. MARTELLO. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Cubans who were involved in it were released without
any fine or any punishment, were they not?
Mr. MARTELLO. I do not remember, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to discuss this thing with
Oswald after the case had been disposed of?
Mr. MARTELLO. No, sir. That was all there was to it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there any other reason that you didn't regard Oswald
as a violent kind of person, other than the one that you mentioned
concerning his failure to respond to the provocation of the Cubans?
Mr. MARTELLO. He did not impress me at the time I interviewed him as a
violent person by any of the responses to questions, by observing his
physical makeup. Not in any way, shape, or form did he appear to me
as being violent in any way. He displayed very little emotion and was
completely unconcerned and aloof. Off the record?
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. When you subsequently heard that Oswald had been arrested
in connection with the assassination, were you surprised?
Mr. MARTELLO. Yes, sir; I was, I was very much surprised.