illusions are induced, let us take one detail in the really spectacular
show that was put on at the funeral of President Kennedy. That was
a mass performance which for sheer technical virtuousity certainly
deserves to rank with such spectacles in the cinema as Cleopatra and
Ben Hur. Now, I made it a point to talk to many people who had seen
that spectacle on television, and I found that all of them very
firmly believed that the caparisoned horse named ‘Black Jack’ in the
procession belonged to Mrs. Kennedy and was her favorite mount. That is
entirely false.
“As most of you may not know for the national press never reported it,
the headquarters detachment of our Army under orders from McNamara’s
office began to rehearse for the funeral more than a week before the
assassination, and ‘Black Jack’ was an old army horse who was selected
at the time of the first rehearsal for the role that he played in the
real performance. Incidentally, he was a horse who had never been
broken to the saddle and consequently never ridden by anyone. That is
what was specifically said by the commander of that detachment when he
told his hometown newspaper about the rehearsals.” Perhaps I should
add that I did not hear of that statement for several days and by the
time that I tried to reach him by telephone the commander had been
transferred to somewhere in Germany. I mention “Black Jack” and the
impression created on television merely as an example of the attention
to detail that makes great and impressive performances.”
In other words, in my speech I am pointing out that the impression
conveyed to these many viewers whom I interviewed, and so far as
I know, to all viewers; was that this horse was the horse of Mrs.
Kennedy, whereas it was an army horse.
Mr. JENNER. Upon what source did you rely in making the statement that
the special detachment to which you refer began to rehearse for the
funeral a week before the assassination?
Mr. OLIVER. I relied primarily on the interview given by Captain Cloy
to the Jackson, Miss., Clarion-Ledger.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a copy of that?
Mr. OLIVER. On the 21st of February, 1964.
Mr. JENNER. May I mark it? We will have an exhibit number on it.
I have marked as Oliver Exhibit No. 8 a photostatic reprint of an
article headlined “A lot to remember, McComb Army officer big part in
Kennedy funeral” by Kenneth Tolliver, and in the center is written, I
assume, in--is that your handwriting, the black lettering?
Mr. OLIVER. Mrs. Oliver’s, I believe, which picks up the words
“Clarion-Ledger” from the next reproduction.
Mr. JENNER. For purposes of reproduction, it reads, “Jackson,
Mississippi, Clarion-Ledger, February 21, 1964.” I take it, sir, that
the clipping, I guess this is an actual clipping pasted on here, the
upper portion, in any event is either the clipping or a reproduction of
it upon which you relied?
(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 8 for
identification.)
Mr. OLIVER. This is a reproduction of the clipping.
Mr. JENNER. Would you show me where in that clipping it says in any
respect whatsoever that Captain Cloy made the statement that he and his
unit were rehearsing for the funeral of President Kennedy a week in
advance of the assassination?
Mr. OLIVER. My first knowledge of the rehearsal came from a letter that
I received from someone in Arlington, or Alexandria, informing me that
the Army had rehearsed the funeral more than a week before the funeral,
I think, I cannot be sure.
Mr. JENNER. The funeral was on Monday, the 25th of November.
Mr. OLIVER. And I would not say that I discounted the letter. I
appreciated it, as I appreciate all efforts to give me information. On
the other hand, I did not follow it up partly because I was very busy,
and partly because I thought it entirely possible that what had been
witnessed was some other Army exercise that could easily have been
mistaken for a rehearsal of the funeral.
Consequently, I put it aside, and I am afraid I really dropped it from
my mind until I received this clipping from the Clarion-Ledger a number
of days after it had been published. I wouldn’t want to say how many
now.
Mr. JENNER. But you had it prior to your speech at the Santa Ana Valley
High School?
Mr. OLIVER. Oh, yes; quite some time before that.
Mr. JENNER. And before you prepared the speech, part of which you have
read?
Mr. OLIVER. That is right. And that confirmed the statement that a
funeral had been rehearsed.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; but not President Kennedy’s.
Mr. OLIVER. But it turned out to be that.
Mr. JENNER. The only point I am making, Doctor, is that you will notice
in the article that what Captain Cloy says is not what you state in
your speech he said, but rather that before the assassination his
special unit had been rehearsing for the anticipated possible funeral
of President Hoover who was then ill.
Mr. OLIVER. That is right. He said, “We were in a state of readiness
and had just finished a funeral rehearsal because there was grave
concern for President Hoover’s health”.
Mr. JENNER. That is not rehearsal for a funeral of President Kennedy a
week in advance either of the funeral or of the assassination, is it?
Mr. OLIVER. Capt. Richard C. Cloy states that the conduct of the
President’s funeral is in accordance with orders that cover 160 pages.
He implies----
Mr. JENNER. Those are standing orders.
Mr. OLIVER. Presumably, and he implies that all funerals are conducted
in the same way. And he goes on to speak of difficulties that his men
encountered and how they performed, and that although his command was
ready for the state funeral, the actual site of the burial was not
known until the day before the ceremony, and so on. The point I was
making was that the show was a rehearsed show, and I do not believe
that I say that on----
Mr. JENNER. I think if you will read it again, sir, there is a clear
implication, if not express statement on your part, that his unit began
to rehearse for the funeral a week ahead. Would you read that sentence
again, or that series of clauses?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes; “The headquarters detachment of our Army under orders
from McNamara’s office began to rehearse for the funeral more than a
week before the assassination.”
Mr. JENNER. Yes; now, that clear implication is that the unit was
rehearsing for President Kennedy’s funeral because they knew there was
going to be a funeral.
Mr. OLIVER. Oh, no; that is not the implication. I certainly would not
imply that the unit knew it, because Cloy states specifically that they
did not. They were told that it was a rehearsal for the anticipated
demise of President Hoover.
Mr. JENNER. Is it in your implication then, sir, in your speech,
that somebody else or some agency, somebody else connected with the
Government of the United States or some agency of the Government of the
United States, including the Army, Navy, Air Corps, Marines, wherever
they may be, anticipated the assassination of the President a week in
advance and directed the unit to begin preparing for the funeral?
Mr. OLIVER. No; that is not my implication. If you raise a question it
would be an interesting one for you to investigate; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Well, we wish to investigate anything that you readily
seek to imply, and to some, at least, and frankly to me, that sentence
that you have just read carries the clear implication that President
Kennedy’s assassination was anticipated by somebody in the Government
service or Government-connected, and the unit, Captain Cloy’s unit was
told to begin rehearsing for a funeral, the pretext being the funeral
or possible funeral of President Hoover, whereas those who directed it
had specifically in mind the assassination of President Kennedy, is
that what you intended to imply?
Mr. OLIVER. That is not what I intended to imply in this passage here.
But it is certainly an inference that could be drawn from the facts;
yes, I mean it is a possibility.
Mr. JENNER. In fairness to yourself and others possibly involved,
Doctor, what did you intend to imply?
Mr. OLIVER. I was primarily concerned in making the point that the
viewers suffered an illusion. That they had assumed this horse belonged
to Mrs. Kennedy, whereas he certainly did not. I further intended to
imply there was no conceivable connection between Mrs. Kennedy and the
horse, since she can’t ever have ridden it if nobody rode it.
Mr. JENNER. Did you intend to imply by that statement that the
assassination of President Kennedy was anticipated and that the
practice instructions issued to Captain Cloy and his unit were in
anticipation of, in fact, not the possible death of Hoover but the
assassination of the President of the United States?
Mr. OLIVER. That is not what I intended to imply. I did not intend to
exclude that possibility, of course.
Mr. JENNER. And the source and sole source of that sentence which you
have now read from your speech was the newspaper clipping from the
Jackson, Miss., Clarion-Ledger, of February 21, 1964, now identified as
Oliver Exhibit No. 8?
Mr. OLIVER. Except insofar as concerns the actual date. Cloy, you see,
says merely that they had just finished a rehearsal. The date as being
a week before either the funeral or the assassination, I got from this
letter.
Mr. JENNER. What letter was that?
Mr. OLIVER. This was a letter that I had received some time in
February, probably early in February.
Mr. JENNER. But the line in your speech as of last week was based on
the material contained in Oliver Exhibit No. 8?
Mr. OLIVER. That letter and Oliver No. 8.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have the letter?
Mr. OLIVER. No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. And the letter was from whom?
Mr. OLIVER. I do not recall the name.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have the letter on which you relied?
Mr. OLIVER. Probably. I have such a mass of undigested correspondence
that I probably have it some place in that mass. On the other hand, I
may not, because I recently searched for an entirely different letter
and wasn’t able to find it. Possibly I just overlooked it.
Mr. JENNER. The letter was, I take it, from a person with whom you had
not sufficient contact so that you can recall his or her name.
Mr. OLIVER. So far as I know, it was a name unknown to me. It could
conceivably have been somebody that I met some time but, as I recall,
there was no allusion to such a meeting. It was simply offering
information.
Mr. JENNER. Did that--I take it from what you said that the letter
made reference to the item that was about to be published which is now
identified as Oliver Exhibit No. 8?
Mr. OLIVER. So far as I know, the writer of the letter had no knowledge
of that interview at all.
Mr. JENNER. What did the writer of the letter say as you now recall?
Mr. OLIVER. The writer of the letter implied that the Army had
rehearsed for the funeral of Kennedy--that was the implication in the
letter--as I say, more than a week either before the funeral or the
assassination, I am not quite sure which word was used.
Mr. JENNER. Did you attempt to verify the statement made by a source
which was therefore unknown to you?
Mr. OLIVER. As I say, I simply put the letter aside and for all
practical purpose, I should say I forgot it until I received this
clipping.
Mr. JENNER. Then for all practical purposes, Doctor, in making your
speech last week you relied on Oliver Exhibit No. 8?
Mr. OLIVER. Plus the letter for the date.
Mr. JENNER. For what date?
Mr. OLIVER. The date of the rehearsal.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Did you make any attempt to determine whether there
was such a person who purported to write you a letter?
Mr. OLIVER. As the writer of the letter, you mean?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OLIVER. No; I did nothing with the letter.
Mr. JENNER. You just put it aside?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes; as for Captain Cloy, I did ascertain that there was
such a person.
Mr. JENNER. How did you do that?
Mr. OLIVER. By trying to reach him by telephone.
Mr. JENNER. Where?
Mr. OLIVER. In McComb, Miss., which is a small town some distance
south of Jackson, but for which the Jackson paper evidently acts
as the local paper. I understand there is a small paper in the town
itself, but one that seems to be not very highly regarded.
Mr. JENNER. What did you do, make a long distance call down there?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. And in making that call you were advised by whom that there
was or was not such a person?
Mr. OLIVER. Well, I certainly was advised----
Mr. JENNER. Relate what you did on it.
Mr. OLIVER. What I did was place a person-to-person call to Captain
Cloy, giving his full name.
Mr. JENNER. Richard C.?
Mr. OLIVER. Richard C. Cloy, in McComb, Miss. And it seems to me there
is another item of information about him there which I was also able to
use. Yes; it states Captain Cloy’s wife is the daughter of Mr. and Mrs.
J. W. Burt, of Summit. I am not too sure that I used the name of Burt.
I may have simply had that at hand. In any case, connection was made
by the operator to some home, I assume a home in McComb, from which
she was referred to another number, and at the other number a female
voice replied, I assumed it was the captain’s mother, but had no means
of verifying that--that the captain was in Germany and that there was
no way of reaching him by telephone. I regard that as verifying his
existence. I subsequently asked a friend of mine in Jackson, Miss., to
verify his existence, and he reported to me that he did.
Mr. JENNER. You have never talked with Captain Cloy?
Mr. OLIVER. No; I had been unable to reach him. Very possibly had I
been willing to persist and spend the money for transoceanic phones, I
could have done so.
Mr. JENNER. I show you a document I have marked Oliver Exhibit No. 9
which consists of pages A-4596, and A-4597 of the Congressional Record
of Thursday, September 3, 1964, which consists of extension of remarks
of Morris K. Udall, of the House of Representatives, commencing on page
A-4596, and running over to page A-4597. Are you familiar with those
newspaper reports that Representative Udall has placed of record in the
Congressional Record?
Mr. OLIVER. No; this is new to me. Congressman Udall is evidently much
upset.
Mr. JENNER. You have anticipated my question. I was going to ask, well,
I did ask if you were familiar with it. That is as you say new to you.
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. While you are looking at that, Doctor, I would like to mark
your speech with an Exhibit number, and in fairness so as to have the
accurate speech rather than the newspaper reports.
Mr. OLIVER. Very good. Of course this man is reporting part.
Mr. JENNER. I beg your pardon?
Mr. OLIVER. Of course this man is reporting in part.
Mr. JENNER. You are now referring to Oliver Exhibit No. 9?
Mr. OLIVER. The first by Eric Cavallero. You will return that
manuscript?
Mr. JENNER. Everything.
While you are browsing on Oliver Exhibit No. 9, I have before me a
sheaf of sheets, typewritten with longhand notations which I have
marked Oliver Exhibit No. 10, and I think you estimated they ran 39
pages plus a couple of A pages.
(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 9 for
identification.)
Mr. OLIVER. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. There are some interlineations in longhand and some block
printing on various of the pages. Are those interlineations and block
printing in your handwriting?
Mr. OLIVER. Practically all of them. One or two of them may not be.
Mr. JENNER. Why don’t you identify the ones that aren’t.
Mr. OLIVER. This little----
Mr. JENNER. Page 7 in the lower left-hand corner is a notation reading
“This month August 1964” and that is the handwriting of whom?
Mr. OLIVER. Mrs. Oliver. That is, I am perfectly willing to accept the
responsibility for all of the handwritten notations that appear here.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. OLIVER. The only exceptions are one or two corrections where in my
haste in typing I have inverted letters or things like that.
Mr. JENNER. Obvious typographicals?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. This is, sir, the typewritten speech?
Mr. OLIVER. Typewritten text from which I spoke.
Mr. JENNER. I am sorry, I mean typewritten text from which you spoke at
the Santa Ana Valley High School and other places you have spoken in
recent days?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us where those places were?
Mr. OLIVER. Tucson, Ariz.
Mr. JENNER. Can you give the dates, approximately?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes; I can give you the exact dates. I spoke in Tucson on
Monday, the 24th of August; San Diego, Tuesday, the 25th of August;
Azuza, Calif., Wednesday, the 26th of August; Glendale, Calif.,
Thursday, the 27th of August; Santa Ana Friday the 28th of August; and
Salt Lake City Saturday, the 29th of August. And the speech which I
gave in all of those places was substantially the same except that I
did cut.
Mr. JENNER. The same as Oliver Exhibit No. 10?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes; I did occasionally cut when I saw that my time was
running a little long.
Mr. UNGER. I wish you would have done that today. We missed another
plane.
(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 10 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. In your reference to Joachim Joesten’s book, you had
particular reference to chapter 16, did you not?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes, I believe so. This is the one which takes up the
discussion of the CIA and the FBI, and tries to connect them with
General Walker and H. L. Hunt, and other persons.
Mr. JENNER. Do I now have all the sources to which you resorted in
preparing your article in the American Opinion, and the speech which is
identified as Oliver Exhibit No. 10?
Mr. OLIVER. I believe so; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Is it a fair statement that as to both of those your
sources were, to use your language, public sources in the sense of
books, newspaper articles, and--what would you call this kind of a
thing----
Mr. OLIVER. Newspaper articles, or bulletins, and magazine articles.
Mr. JENNER. Magazine articles, and that you had no confidential source
other than if you want to describe Colonel Clark’s talk with you as a
confidential source?
Mr. OLIVER. That is right. Except, of course, that I used the research
facilities of Mr. Capell particularly, as I have stated.
Mr. JENNER. Did you use his research facilities in the sense of his
library or rather did you employ bulletins issued by him or reports
made to you which he prepared using his own library?
Mr. OLIVER. Reports which he made to me chiefly by telephone, chiefly
because I needed them in a hurry.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and your understanding was that he in turn based those
reports on research work that he did of public sources?
Mr. OLIVER. He has very elaborate files and many contacts.
Mr. UNGER. I should point out to you that Mr. Jenner said he based upon
public publications or files. That is not exactly correct, is it?
Mr. OLIVER. Mr. Jenner said that Mr. Capell based his.
Mr. UNGER. Yes; do you want that statement to stand?
Mr. JENNER. As far as you know. I will put it this way, sir. What were
Mr. Capell’s sources so far as they are personally known to you, of
your own knowledge?
Mr. OLIVER. They are Mr. Capell’s files which go back over many years,
and Mr. Capell’s current files which include information that he
obtains from former intelligence officers and former members of the
FBI. He has contacts with the Cuban underground, in fact with several
Cuban undergrounds, and various other sources which enable him to
obtain information which he believes to be reliable and accurate. He
will indicate to me the nature of the information that he has, although
over the telephone he will not usually disclose a source that he
regards as confidential.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any other editions of his publication “The
Herald of Freedom” that is, in addition to Oliver Exhibit No. 6 upon
which you relied?
Mr. OLIVER. I have, in the sense that I relied on information from him,
much of which appeared in various copies of his periodical. I believe I
have one other issue here. Here is one dated the 6th of December, 1963.
Mr. JENNER. Upon which you also relied?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That we will mark as Oliver Exhibit No. 11.
(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 11 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. It is the Herald of Freedom issue, volume 4, No. 9, dated
December 6, 1963. The first page of which is entitled “John Fitzgerald
Kennedy,” the second page Lee Harvey Oswald, the third page Lee Harvey
Oswald, and at the bottom of the page Leon Rubenstein alias Jack Ruby.
That is continued onto the fourth page, and the final heading, “The
truth shall make you free,” is on the fourth page. I take it you were
relying upon the materials appearing in pages 1, 2, 3, and about the
third of the way down on page 4.
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I show you a tearsheet from the Chicago Daily News, dated
Wednesday, February 12, 1964, on which I have underlined in red pencil
or red ink, statements attributed by the author, the reporter who
authored this article, and ask you whether those statements fairly
report claims, charges or statements that you made?
Mr. OLIVER. No, they certainly do not fairly report what I said. They
are quoting from the article which is already in the record.
Mr. JENNER. That is American Opinion?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes, American Opinion.
Mr. JENNER. So that an accurate, truly accurate, representation of what
you did say or you did write is the two issues of American Opinion now
identified as Oliver Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2?
Mr. OLIVER. Precisely, and not what some malicious or careless
journalist might wish to excerpt from that article for the purposes of
producing a sensation or a scandal.
Mr. JENNER. Dr. Oliver, we had a kind of hard time getting hold of
Commission Exhibit 1015 and they are out of print, by the way. I would
like to know--are you what Mr. Surrey testified to as a--are you on the
presubscription list of the----
Mr. OLIVER. American Eagle Publishing Co.
Mr. JENNER. American Eagle Publishing Co.?
Mr. OLIVER. I may well be. I was or don’t know whether there was or is
a presubscription list. But I suspect that if there was or is one I may
well be on it.
Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough to tell me how you came by one?
(Discussion off the record.)
(The document was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 12.)
Mr. OLIVER. If you want to know how I got my copy, General Walker sent
it to me. Or I assume that he did; anyway, it was sent to me.
Mr. JENNER. At least it arrived in the mail?
Mr. OLIVER. That is right. Here is the ad.
Mr. JENNER. The advertisement to which Mr. Unger made reference appears
in Oliver Exhibit No. 1, page 82.
Mr. UNGER. That is not the advertisement that I made reference to, and
I am not a subscriber to that magazine. I just got an ad through the
mail for that publication.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I have no further questions. Mr. Unger, you
are at liberty to ask Mr. Oliver any questions you desire.
Mr. UNGER. I understand that I have the opportunity to clarify any
points that are in confusion, but I think that the witness and counsel
have brought everything out admirably. I can’t think anything that
needs to be added.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you. I have no further questions.
Mr. OLIVER. I would like to----
Mr. JENNER. Is there something you would like to add, sir?
Mr. OLIVER. Merely to point out that your opening statement of which I
have a copy here, confuses the article with the speech in the reference
to the rehearsal for the funeral which, of course, was not made in
the article but was made in the speech, and contains a very serious
misstatement in saying that in my article I charge that “President
Kennedy’s assassination was part of a Communist plot engendered with
the help of the Central Intelligence Agency.” I make no such charge.
Mr. JENNER. The charge you make is contained in your speech. Whatever
you say on that subject is contained in Oliver Exhibit No. 10, your
speech, is that correct, sir?
Mr. OLIVER. What I say on that subject is contained in the speech which
you have labeled No. 10.
Mr. JENNER. Are there any other sources for your speech or your article
to which we have not yet made reference?
Mr. OLIVER. There would probably be thousands of them if we consider
the first two-thirds of the speech in which I discuss socialism and so
on----
Mr. JENNER. Doctor, we are only concerned with the subject matter.
Mr. OLIVER. Of the assassination?
Mr. JENNER. Yes.
Mr. OLIVER. No, we have covered only the kind of sources that we have
used.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Reporter, I offer in evidence as Oliver Exhibits Nos. 1
through 12, the documents previously so marked.