reported through these secondary sources?
Mr. OLIVER. True, and of my own personal knowledge I do not even know
that Minsk exists.
Mr. JENNER. You have never been there?
Mr. OLIVER. That is correct.
Mr. JENNER. Have you now given me all the sources of that statement to
which the Commission may turn its attention if it has not already done
so?
Mr. OLIVER. You are now referring to the marriage of Oswald to the
daughter of the Soviet Colonel?
Mr. JENNER. I am referring to the whole sentence beginning, “He was
then trained”, and ending “secret police.”
Mr. OLIVER. Did I mention that the adopted father was her uncle, was
the uncle of Marina?
Mr. JENNER. I don’t think you called him an adopted father.
You mean in the sense she went to live with him?
Mr. OLIVER. She went to live with him in the capacity of a daughter.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I lost your thought. Would you repeat? You did
mention something, you said?
Mr. OLIVER. Did I mention that the colonel in the Soviet military
intelligence with whom Marina was living at the time that Oswald
married her, was, according to her statement, her uncle?
Mr. JENNER. I don’t think you mentioned that.
Mr. OLIVER. I did not want to intrude any other implication into the
record.
Mr. JENNER. No; of course not. Here again the reference to him as her
uncle is in turn based on either a newspaper source or a news broadcast
or some other secondary source?
Mr. OLIVER. In this case I believe I am relying principally on research
done by Mr. Capell.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Also, as a source would be the daily
Congressional Record for December 4, 1963, page 22215.
Mr. OLIVER. It is, I think, relevant to the Commission’s inquiries
that excerpts published from the diary of this man Oswald indicate two
things: First, that he was receiving a salary of approximately 700
rubles from the Russian Government through a Red Cross--Russian Red
Cross--cover; and, second, that he was on terms of such intimacy with
the colonel in the military intelligence that he could boast of their
drinking parties together.
Mr. JENNER. Here, again, your statement is based on what?
Mr. OLIVER. On----
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, may I amend my question by asking the source of
your information?
Mr. OLIVER. Principally certainly research reports from Mr. Capell. I
saw, of course, certain excerpts published in the newspapers.
Mr. JENNER. Recently?
Mr. OLIVER. But I am relying principally on Mr. Capell’s research.
Mr. JENNER. You have reference, I assume, I don’t know when it was
published, Oswald’s autobiography? Did you see that?
Mr. OLIVER. Not with that title on it. I am thinking of newspaper
reports that quoted not more than two or three paragraphs.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. OLIVER. Containing excerpts from the diary.
Mr. JENNER. But you saw no such newspaper reports of excerpts at or
prior to the time you wrote and published this article, did you?
Mr. OLIVER. I believe not; no. I mentioned that as merely pertinent to
the scope of your inquiry, as you could find.
Mr. JENNER. Then you go on in your article and say, “In 1962 after he
had been trained for 3 years in Russia, the Communist agent and his
Communist wife were brought to the United States in open violation of
American law by our Communist-dominated State Department.” Now, I take
the statement “had been trained for 3 years in Russia,” the sources
thereof are the sources you have already mentioned?
Mr. OLIVER. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. In connection with the previous sentence. What is your
source for the statement that he was a Communist?
Mr. OLIVER. A man who can----
Mr. JENNER. If you will forgive an interruption, Doctor----
Mr. OLIVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. First, tell me the source, I have no objection to your
elaborating after you have given the source.
Mr. OLIVER. For the statement that he was a Communist agent, I rely
on what I regard as certain inference from, A, his training in this
school; B, the circumstance he was a man who had been accorded most
extraordinary privileges in Russia; C, that he had been permitted to
marry and take with him the adopted daughter of a man in the Russian
intelligence service.
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me, sir, are you now using adopted in the technical
sense, that the uncle you have identified adopted her?
Mr. OLIVER. I am using it loosely because I for that matter do not know
whether there is legal adoption in the Soviet.
Mr. JENNER. I didn’t want you to utter something that you perhaps did
not intend.
Mr. OLIVER. No; I was merely reluctant to say “purported father”
because that would have another implication. D, that he had been
permitted to return to the United States by the Soviet with his wife;
E, his activities in the United States after his return, all of
which were quite obviously in the Communist interest. I believe that
summarizes the principal points on which I based my deduction. It is,
of course, true that I had no personal knowledge that he was a Soviet
agent.
Mr. JENNER. Now, were the sources of these points A through E, the news
reports, Commission Exhibit 1015, the Congressional Record, newspaper
clippings, and other secondary sources of that nature?
Mr. OLIVER. Together with, here also, reports from Mr. Capell.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have with you copies of any of the reports of Mr.
Capell that you considered?
Mr. OLIVER. No; I do not.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have with you the sources that you considered in
connection with making of the statement we have now immediately quoted?
Mr. OLIVER. I beg your pardon, I did not hear your last words.
(The question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.)
Mr. JENNER. That is, the sentence commencing at the bottom of page 13
of Oliver Exhibit No. 2 and concluding at the top of the right-hand
column.
Mr. OLIVER. I strongly imagine that most of the details regarding
Oswald’s return to this country are to be found in the news clippings
here.
Mr. JENNER. In Commission Exhibit No. 1015?
Mr. OLIVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And that is the source that you considered?
Mr. OLIVER. That and similar news clippings. I would not want to say
they were all in this collection.
Mr. JENNER. I don’t wish to put those words in your mouth either, but
those are the sources upon which you base the statement?
Mr. OLIVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Does that include the statement that he and his wife
“were brought to the United States by our Communist-dominated State
Department.”
I am seeking here to emphasize only the point of your statement that
they were brought to the United States by the State Department.
Mr. OLIVER. They were brought in the sense that they were given
passports and that their passage was paid for with money from the State
Department in the sum of something less than $500 as I remember it.
Mr. JENNER. Monies advanced by the State Department. You are aware
those monies were repaid?
Mr. OLIVER. I do not know whether they were repaid or not. I believe
that I have heard that they were never repaid. But that is something I
certainly would not say without a checking.
Mr. JENNER. Well, just for your information they were repaid by January
of 1963.
Mr. OLIVER. They were. May I further ask whether it is known from what
source they were repaid?
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir; when the report is published this month you will
see it.
Mr. OLIVER. Very good.
Mr. JENNER. Your statement that he was brought back or permitted to
come back in open violation of American law is a statement of your
opinion only, I take it?
Mr. OLIVER. Of my opinion, based, I believe, on the import of
legislation intended to prevent the coming of known Communists to this
country.
Mr. JENNER. It is your interpretation of Federal statutes and
regulations?
Mr. OLIVER. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then you continue in your article in the right-hand column
on page 13, “Upon his arrival in this country Oswald took up his duties
as an agent of the conspiracy, conspiracy with a cap C, spying on
anti-Communist Cuban refugees, serving as an agitator for Fair Play for
Cuba, and participating in some of the many other forms of subversion
that flourish openly in the defiance of law through the connivance of
the Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy.”
Here again, I take it, your statement that he was an agent and he took
up duties as an agent of the conspiracy, was the same source you relied
upon in connection with the previous sentence that he was a Communist
agent.
Mr. OLIVER. Yes. In the sense that this spying on Cuban refugees could
scarcely have had any other purposes. Fair Play for Cuba is very
obviously a Communist enterprise.
Mr. JENNER. This statement, in turn, is based on newspaper reports and
radio broadcasts or television broadcasts, as the case may be?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes. I should perhaps add, yes; that I heard a personal
account in, as I recall, Tulsa, Okla., from a man who was connected
with a Cuban group that Oswald tried to infiltrate.
Mr. JENNER. Was that Carlos Bringuier?
Mr. OLIVER. Bringuier, I believe so, yes. And I also heard from the
publisher of the Independent American of an attempt by Oswald to obtain
employment on that newspaper.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify that person, please?
Mr. OLIVER. The Independent American is a newspaper published by Kent
Courtney, or I should say edited by Kent Courtney, in New Orleans.
It is C-o-u-r-t-n-e-y.
It is largely composed of reprints of editorials and other material
from conservative sources in the United States. There is some original
material written by either Mr. or Mrs. Courtney.
Mr. JENNER. When you said you heard from the editor, is that gentleman
Mr. Courtney?
Mr. OLIVER. That is Mr. Courtney.
Mr. JENNER. And when you say you heard from him was that a conversation
or did he send you a copy of his piece or a copy of the article?
Mr. OLIVER. A conversation.
Mr. JENNER. A conversation. Have you seen any article or item he has
written or published in which he makes that statement in substance?
Mr. OLIVER. Not that I recall. If so, I saw it after the conversation
and I did not remember it separately.
Mr. JENNER. For your information, and Mr. Unger’s, Mr. Bringuier has
been examined at very considerable length.
Mr. OLIVER. Mr. whom?
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Bringuier.
Mr. OLIVER. Yes. Did he confirm what he told me?
Mr. JENNER. Doctor, I will give you the pleasure of reading his
testimony.
Mr. OLIVER. Very good.
Mr. JENNER. A part of your statement, which I have already quoted, is
that Oswald engaged in these activities “through the connivance of the
Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy.”
Upon what source did you rely or base this statement that I have just
quoted?
Mr. OLIVER. Primarily the failure to enforce a law of Congress which,
incidentally, has been held constitutional, requiring members of the
Communist Party to register and, also what seemed to me to be a very
conspicuous absence of any other legal measures against the Communist
Party or its auxiliaries.
Mr. JENNER. Would you have the record show, Mr. Reporter, that the
witness is consulting with Mr. Unger. Do you wish to add anything now?
Mr. OLIVER. No. I take it that the references are to sources that I had
at my disposal at the time I wrote this article.
Mr. JENNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. OLIVER. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. It may be that you have repeated the statement
subsequently, and if you have any subsequent sources I wish to have
them since the Commission continues to function until it renders its
report. That is, you may have discovered something in the meantime that
is of a more primary source than you have indicated, which would, of
course, be important to the Commission. If you have discovered such a
source since then would you please mention it.
Mr. OLIVER. I believe some confirmation of this statement will come out
later in the testimony.
Mr. JENNER. I see. At some subsequent point of your article?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You go on to say, “In April of 1963 he was sent to Dallas
where he tried to murder General Walker.”
What is the source of your statement that he was sent to Dallas and by
whom?
Mr. OLIVER. That statement is based upon the consideration that it
is extremely improbable that a Communist agent would do anything of
importance except under orders from his superiors. The extremely rigid
discipline to which Communists are subjected in the neophyte stage
is, I think, very lucidly set forth by Frank Meyer in his “Molding of
Communists,” I believe.
Mr. JENNER. That is a book, is it, or an article?
Mr. OLIVER. A book by Mr. Meyer published several years ago.
Mr. JENNER. And in turn also, this reasoning of yours is based on the
assumption that Oswald was a Communist?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You have mentioned neophyte. Would you for my edification
if none other, explain to me what is a neophyte Communist, as
distinguished from some other kind of Communist?
Mr. OLIVER. Well, I was simply using the term in its usual sense, with
reference to a person recently admitted to a cult or organization
under discipline. And Mr. Meyer makes the point that from the very
early stages of a person’s membership in the Communist Party, he is
accustomed to the kind of discipline which would make it impossible for
him, let us say, to marry or divorce, to change jobs, to do anything
of sufficient importance to affect his usefulness as an agent without
the permission of his superiors. I should say nobody is going to take
it for granted when I cite Frank Meyer’s source that is my only source
of knowledge of Communist methods. Let me add that I have read a great
deal on the organization and operation of the Communist Party and all
of that necessarily goes into my reasoning on this subject.
Mr. JENNER. Then you proceed to, and I am quoting again, “The failure
does not reflect on the assassin’s professional training: General
Walker happened to turn his head at the instant the shot was fired.”
What is the source of your statement that General Walker happened to
turn his head at the instant the shot was fired?
Mr. OLIVER. Well, I believe it was published at the time, but there I
rely primarily on General Walker himself.
Mr. JENNER. Did General Walker tell you that himself?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You will be interested in reading his testimony. I take it
then it is the statement of General Walker and newspaper accounts?
Mr. OLIVER. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. And those are your two sources?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You proceed, “according to a story that has been neither
confirmed nor denied officially, at the time I write, Oswald
was arrested as a suspect but was released through the personal
intervention of Robert F. Kennedy and all inquiry into the attempted
assassination of a great American was halted.”
And you have a footnote. The footnote reads, “Reprinted in the
Councilor, 228 Oil and Gas Building, Shreveport, La., December 20,
1963.”
Do you have a copy of the Councilor to which you have referred in your
footnote?
Mr. OLIVER. I do, I believe. Yes; you will find it at the bottom of
page 1.
Mr. JENNER. May I mark this as an exhibit, please?
Mr. OLIVER. I should like that returned to me for my files.
Mr. JENNER. That will be easy because we can duplicate this on Xerox
very readily.
Mr. OLIVER. Very good. Incidentally, if you want a somewhat better
duplication you will find this in this American Eagle reprint, also.
Mr. JENNER. The Commission Exhibit No. 1015 that you have before you?
Mr. OLIVER. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify that for me, please?
Mr. OLIVER. You will find it on the page, the rest of which consists
of excerpts from the Dallas Morning News, headed in large black pencil
12/6.
Mr. JENNER. And the date, or the heading at the top, boldfaced
heading is “Soviet Insinuations call for Query Oswald.” On the bottom
right-hand side of the page appears what apparently is a news clipping.
Mr. OLIVER. It is from the Deutsche National Zeitung.
Mr. JENNER. We have been identifying, Mr. Reporter, a page in
Commission Exhibit No. 1015. Is that correct?
Mr. OLIVER. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. I have marked as Oliver Exhibit No. 4 the December 20,
1963, issue of The Councilor volume 2, No. 3, published by Citizens
Council of Louisiana, Inc., for Americans everywhere, which Dr. Oliver
has produced for me, which I will return to him, or I will return it to
you, Mr. Unger, as soon as we have duplicated it.
Mr. OLIVER. Do you not have a file of the papers yourselves?
Mr. JENNER. If we don’t have it it will be a modern miracle. You are
asking for my personal knowledge. I must say I don’t know.
Mr. OLIVER. Right.
(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 4 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. But if we don’t have it, it will amaze me. I, in my work,
have not seen it.
I take it then that the Oliver Exhibit No. 4 and the portion of
Commission Exhibit No. 1015 which I have identified are the sources for
your statement that Oswald was arrested as a suspect in connection with
the attempt on the life of General Walker?
Mr. OLIVER. They are the sources for my statement that there was a
report that that had happened.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And that General Walker happened to turn his
head and for that reason he escaped death.
Mr. OLIVER. Well, as I have said, that was based partly on statements
made by General Walker.
Mr. JENNER. And in part on the Zeitung news report, of course?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Also, those two sources, I take it, are the source of your
statement that Oswald, “was released through the personal intervention
of Robert F. Kennedy.”
Mr. OLIVER. That is part of the statement in the report that I am
quoting.
Mr. JENNER. In other words, that the source upon which you base that
statement was Oliver Exhibit No. 4, and its reproduction in whole or in
part in Commission Exhibit No. 1015?
Mr. OLIVER. And specifically the German text.
Mr. JENNER. Which appears in?
Mr. OLIVER. In those.
Mr. JENNER. In exhibit--Commission Exhibit No. 1015.
Mr. OLIVER. I may add that at my request Mr. Frank Capell ascertained
that this article had actually appeared in the National Zeitung.
Mr. JENNER. I am seeking only the sources, whether confirmed by Mr.
Capell or otherwise. I now understand they consisted of Oliver Exhibit
No. 4, and the reproduction in whole or in part in German in Commission
Exhibit No. 1015.
Mr. OLIVER. Of course, subsequently to the publication of my article,
confirmation of a kind became available in the reports from the
committee hearings reported by Mr. Henshaw in the National Enquirer.
Mr. JENNER. When you say committee hearings you mean the Commission
hearings.
Mr. OLIVER. The Commission hearings; yes.
Mr. JENNER. At the time you made the statement, I take it, you had no
other source than the two I have indicated plus confirmation from Mr.
Capell that the Zeitung article was published?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Would you identify more particularly the subsequent
confirmation reference you just made about Mr. Henshaw?
Mr. OLIVER. The chief of the Washington Bureau of the National Enquirer
published in the issue of that newspaper for----
Mr. JENNER. If you have a copy of it I would appreciate having it.
Mr. OLIVER. Yes; for May 17, 1964, this article with which you are
doubtless familiar.
Mr. JENNER. The document to which Dr. Oliver has reference, we will
mark as Oliver Exhibit No. 5.
(The document referred to was marked Oliver Exhibit No. 5 for
identification.)
Mr. JENNER. It is entitled “National Enquirer, the World’s Liveliest
Newspaper,” volume 38, No. 36, May 17, 1964, and as submitted to me it
consists of pages 1--numbered 1 and 2, pages 15 and 18 and the reverse
of those two pages which happen to be unnumbered. I take it, Doctor,
that this issue of the National Enquirer dated May 17, 1964, volume
38, No. 36, was composed of additional pages but that none of those
additional pages contains any matter upon which you relied in this
connection.
Mr. OLIVER. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then you go on to say, “In November, Oswald was sent back
to Dallas” and I take it your source of his being sent back by the
Communist group or conspiracy to which you have reference, was the same
as you testified you relied upon in connection with your statement of
his having been sent to Dallas in the first place?
Mr. OLIVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. And I continue the quote, “Where a job in a suitably
located building had been arranged for him.” What did you intend to
imply by the statement that a suitably--“where a job in a suitably
located building had been arranged for him.” Who arranged it and what
is the source of your information?
Mr. OLIVER. The statement that this building is suitably located is an
inference from the fact that it was, (a) on what proved eventually to
be the route of Presidential procession and, (b) that it was one of the
very few buildings to be found in any town in which a man on the upper
floor could be virtually certain of being unobserved because those
upper floors were storage spaces, and the storage spaces so arranged
that there would be no clear view from one end of the floor to the
other.
Mr. JENNER. I take it the source of your information, that is upon
which you base the statement was again newspaper reports or----
Mr. OLIVER. Concerning the building and newspaper reports concerning
the arrangement of the job for him, newspaper reports plus reports from
Mr. Capell, I believe that is all.
Mr. JENNER. By whom had the job been arranged? What was your source as
to that?
Mr. OLIVER. It appears that the intervention which procured the job for
him is attributed to a Mrs. Paine. There were----
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Michael R.; Ruth Paine.
Mr. OLIVER. Ruth Paine; yes. There were some earlier rumors concerning
the way in which he obtained the position, but I believe that at the
time I wrote those had been superseded by the knowledge that Mrs.
Paine had--by the report that Mrs. Paine had given him a very strong
recommendation for the job.
Mr. JENNER. What are you advised as to how that took place, Doctor, and
when?
Mr. OLIVER. As I recall, it took place 2 or 3 days after Oswald failed
to obtain a job in a printing firm whose name does not come to my mind
at the moment. He was refused a job there, as I understand it, because
he naturally had to present his social security papers which contained
his correct name, and the proprietor ascertained that Oswald had
Communist connections and, therefore, refused him the position. As I
understand it, he got the position in the School Depository, I believe
3 days later.
Mr. JENNER. What is the source of your information?
Mr. OLIVER. Here I believe I rely on Mr. Capell and some confirmation
from a number of people in and about Dallas with whom I discussed the
matter. However, as I recall, those discussions took place after I
wrote the article. I can’t be quite certain but I believe they did.
Mr. JENNER. When you refer to Mr. Capell, I take it you are referring
to----
Mr. OLIVER. To Mr. Frank Capell.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Frank Capell, and in particular to releases or
bulletins or writings of his which came to your attention as
distinguished from personal conferences?
Mr. OLIVER. I would rely primarily on personal conferences. Mr. Capell
is the publisher of a periodical called the Herald of Freedom.
Mr. JENNER. The Herald of Freedom?
Mr. OLIVER. Right.
Mr. JENNER. Where is that published?
Mr. OLIVER. In Staten Island in New York.
Mr. JENNER. Are you a subscriber to the Herald of Freedom, did you say?
Mr. OLIVER. Yes; I subscribe to a considerable number of periodicals,
in fact too many.
Mr. JENNER. I wouldn’t doubt it.
Mr. OLIVER. But Mr. Capell does serve as a research consultant for me.
Mr. JENNER. But at the time you made the statement as published in your
article you were relying on what source and what source alone?
Mr. OLIVER. I would not say on any source alone. There were news
reports as to how Oswald had obtained his job. There were further the
reports from Mr. Capell and quite possibly some of these conversations
with people in Dallas.
Mr. JENNER. When you say people in Dallas, who are they, are they
people who had any firsthand knowledge of this?
Mr. OLIVER. Most of them residents of Dallas whom I knew in one way
or another in speaking and so on, but none of them had any personal
knowledge of the assassination, so far as I know.