attorney handling the incorporation to supervise the issuance of stock
certificates?
Mr. KAUFMAN. I can’t even tell you if we ever issued stock certificates
in the corporation. Ofttimes, Mr. Hubert, a person will come to the
office, and we form many, many corporations and we have even served
as dummy incorporators in these incorporation matters and I’m sure you
likewise have. I don’t believe there were dummy incorporators on this
incorporation, as I recall, but that the actual owners of the stock had
signed the application for a charter, but ofttimes instructions are
never forthcoming as to whom the stock would go to. Now, if we did have
such instructions, I’m sure that the stock was issued. I’m inclined
to recall and believe that Earl Ruby at one time might have been a
stockholder. This is a brother of Jack’s, and whether Ralph Paul was
one of the stockholders or not, I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, the records would reflect that.
Mr. KAUFMAN. The records would reflect that and I’m sure there should
have been franchise taxes which were filed which would likewise show
who the officers and directors were.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; would you continue?
Mr. KAUFMAN. All right, going back here to this third paragraph--I
don’t think it’s fair to report, “He states he knows only two persons
who might be able to furnish pertinent information.” I think the
question that was asked me was who would know the most about Jack and
I told them that I thought that Ralph Paul was probably the closest
friend that Jack Ruby had and that I thought Ralph Paul would be
probably the best informant that they could get, and further, that
Alice Nichols, who was secretary for a very fine lawyer who used to be
associated with my father-in-law, Bob Dillard. They shared offices in
the old Southland Building and Bob is general counsel for Southland
Life, and Alice was his secretary, and Jack and Alice had gone together
for many, many years and it was my feeling--it’s not a question of the
only people, it’s a question of who were best qualified to furnish them
some information and I did say that I thought Jack’s acquaintance with
Ralph Paul and with Alice would qualify them more than anyone I knew
to give them any information. Now, in regards to this next paragraph
relating to Jack calling me at home.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 23d day of November?
Mr. KAUFMAN. The 23d of November, the day after the assassination of
the President. I don’t think this correctly reflects what took place,
and I would like to modify it to this extent.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; go ahead.
Mr. KAUFMAN. Jack called me at home and I’m pretty sure that the hour
was somewhere between 3:45 and 4 o’clock and as I recall, I gave this
information to the agents, and the reason I’m sure about the time----
Mr. HUBERT. That’s in the afternoon?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes, sir; and the reason I’m so sure about the time, I was
sleeping and I was awakened, and we do have a clock on our nightstand
and I recall Jack calling and he was very upset, and the nature of our
conversation was in regard to this Bernard Weissman or Wiseman and the
ad that he had run in the Dallas Morning News.
Mr. HUBERT. What manifestations of his being upset did you observe?
Mr. KAUFMAN. It wasn’t observing, I was talking to him on the phone
and you could just tell the way he was talking and the manner in which
he was rambling on that this man was just real--really concerned about
this business.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, about the Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Oh, definitely. He told me how he went down to the post
office and sat in front of this man’s box and watched, trying to find
out who he was if he came to get his mail.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you when he had done that?
Mr. KAUFMAN. I didn’t ask him. In other words, apparently it had taken
place from the time he called me back to the time the President was
assassinated--it had to be within 24 hours, I would assume.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you how long he had stayed watching to see who
would come?
Mr. KAUFMAN. No; he just told me that he thought it was terrible that
this man had run this ad, and when I say “this,” I’m not quoting him
verbatim, I’m sure, but this was his sentiment. He was just upset
about it and he wanted to know how he could locate him. This was the
reason he called. He wanted to know if I could help him--give him some
information where he could find Bernard Weissman. He felt, I guess,
as an attorney that I had some power of investigation or ability or
know-how, and frankly, I told him the best I could recommend was that
he go over to the city library and look at the city directory, that I
had no knowledge of where he could be located.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you what he wanted to do if he did
locate Weissman?
Mr. KAUFMAN. He didn’t say what he wanted to do. I think the nature of
his discussion was that he was trying to be helpful to either the FBI
or the police in locating him. I mean, as far as his talking about he
was going to go out and bodily harm him or beat him up or something
like that, there was no indication in this conversation that that’s
what his intent or motives were.
Mr. HUBERT. You gathered rather that he was trying to be helpful to the
police authorities?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Yes; and I felt that he felt maybe they were overlooking
this and that maybe this fellow--at that time, as I would feel, he was
trying to see if Weissman had anything to do with the assassination of
President Kennedy.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words in his own mind, as you gathered it, he did
associate the Weissman ad with the assassination?
Mr. KAUFMAN. There’s no question about that. Now, this is correctly
pointed out in the report. He made special emphasis about this black
border. Frankly, I went back, after talking to him and looked at it
and it didn’t really mean that much to me when I first looked at it. I
mean--I was upset about it--about the ad. Frankly, I talked to a number
of people about the ad and a number of people talked to me. I happened
to talk to the Jewish Welfare Federation that very day that the
President was killed in the afternoon, and the secretary I talked to
asked me if I had any idea who Bernard Weissman was. It so happens that
I have been active in the community, in the Jewish community as well
as the non-Jewish community and we were having some discussions back
and forth at that time on a matter that had nothing to do with this,
and in our conversations, and this was before the assassination of the
President. It was that morning before the President even arrived, that
we were queried by one of the secretaries over at the Federation as
to who in the heck was Bernard Weissman. So, it was not unusual that
we would talk about this subject because there were a lot of people
that were concerned about it, but Jack was particularly impressed with
the border as being a tipoff of some sort--that this man knew that
the President was going to be assassinated and that probably in the
advertising field, perhaps in Jack’s knowledge of the entertainment
world, and knowing something about setting up advertising, this had
impressed him.
Mr. HUBERT. That black border?
Mr. KAUFMAN. That--when he saw that black border, this was a key. Now
in the conversation Jack had gone through, and he rambled on maybe
for, oh goodness, 10 or 15 minutes, talking about how he had closed
up his clubs and how some of his competitors didn’t do so and how
this provoked him and how the Dallas News--he gave them hell about
running this ad. I mean--don’t think that this brief statement of
summary that is reported by the agents by any means covers the entire
conversation, because Jack just--well he just was upset. It was just
the most upsetting thing that I’ve ever heard with him and in all my
conversation, this seems to have really stirred him up.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the Weissman ad?
Mr. KAUFMAN. This Weissman deal.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comments about Oswald during this
conversation?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Jack?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes?
Mr. KAUFMAN. No. All that this conversation was directed to was at
Bernard Weissman, and the closing up of his club and the refusal of his
competitors to close up, and the attitude of the Dallas Morning News.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he associate Oswald in anyway with any kind of a group,
be it leftist, rightist, middle, or any kind of “ism”?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Jack had never mentioned the name Oswald at that time,
and I’ll say this, without in any way I think violating any client
or attorney relationship, the three times that I saw Jack he never
mentioned the name Oswald. He referred to him but never referred to
him by name. He called him “the deceased” when I talked to him in his
cell. I say “cell,” but I’ve never been in his cell. I saw him in a
little visitation or conference room, but he didn’t even mention him by
“deceased” when I talked to him. I mean, of course, he wasn’t deceased
at that time--when we talked on the phone--the name “Oswald” was never
used by Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to think that the Weissman ad and its possible
relationship to the assassination would hurt the Jewish community or
the Jewish people?
Mr. KAUFMAN. No, sir. No; this wasn’t even discussed. There was no
mention even of whether this Weissman may or may not have been Jewish.
We didn’t even discuss this. Actually, the Jewish subject did not come
up at any time in our conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. In any aspect?
Mr. KAUFMAN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he was concerned about the death of
the President, because of the effect it might have on business in
general in Dallas and in particular with reference to his operations?
Mr. KAUFMAN. No; this wasn’t discussed. Incidentally, I forgot one
thing that he did also point out and that was that he had taken some
pictures of this sign “Impeach Earl Warren.” He also mentioned that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what he proposed to do with those pictures?
Mr. KAUFMAN. No; he did not say. He just asked me if I had seen the
sign. I drive by that place every day and never noticed it, but he had
asked me whether I had seen the sign and told me he had taken some
pictures but did not indicate what he was going to do with them.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; will you go on then?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Now, as far as the rest--“Kaufman stated that Ruby wanted
to know who Weissman was and how he could get in touch with him”--as
I say, he did want to know the means or methods of how a person could
locate him. As I say, I did indicate that he might consider looking at
the city directory.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. KAUFMAN. Now, they go on, “and if Mr. Freedman of the
Anti-Defamation League could furnish him any information as to the
whereabouts of Bernard Weissman.” Now, this is, I think, an inaccurate
statement. Now, during the course of our conversation with the agents,
we told them----
Mr. HUBERT. When you say “we,” who is that?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Me--I should say--I told them that I had been active
with B’nai B’rith and that one of our children, so to speak, is the
Anti-Defamation League, and that I had been called, when my name was
mentioned, by people all over the country who knew me--I had calls
from Peoria, Ill. and from New York--regarding the Rubenstein being
invoked into this and whether it was a matter of antisemitism. I had
been called by Mr. Ted Freedman of the Houston, Tex., Anti-Defamation
League, who came to see me to see whether or not antisemitism had
been invoked into this and whether I personally felt that the name
Rubenstein had been injected here for prejudicial purposes, and I think
that someone is confused in the reporting of this.
I don’t even recall Jack and I talking about the Anti-Defamation
League. I know that Jack was not a member of B’nai B’rith, not that he
didn’t want to be or not that they wouldn’t have had him, I don’t think
he had the money to join. I’m sure he would have liked to have belonged
to a lot of things that he was not able to afford, and it’s not that
expensive an operation, but notwithstanding that, I think that there is
some confusion in this report as to conversations going on between Jack
and myself. Actually, when I was on the witness stand, Mr. Alexander
interrogated me about this very point and I just couldn’t imagine what
the report said and he had the report in his hand, and he asked me
whether or not Jack didn’t want to know or ask me how to get in touch
with the Anti-Defamation League. I don’t remember the exact question,
but this is not correct.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying is that you don’t
recall that you spoke to Jack about that?
Mr. KAUFMAN. About the Anti-Defamation League, although I do say
I talked to the agents about it, but not in connection with a
conversation with Jack. I do admit that the agents and I, in talking
about that, they were very kind and they stayed there and they related
to me how they had Jewish agents in the FBI, Bob Strauss of Dallas had
been an agent, and I mean that they spent a lot of time discussing
this matter with me, and I’m sure they had a lot of things on their
mind, Mr. Hubert, and they were not sitting down taking notes although
I think they did take names down maybe on the back of an envelope or
a scratch pad, but I mean, they didn’t sit down such as the reporter
is doing here this morning and take notes of the things that we were
saying. In other words, I don’t believe that it’s that significant, but
I do want the record to be correct, because I don’t think that Jack
Ruby and I ever discussed the Anti-Defamation League. That’s the point
I’m trying to make.
Now--“He stated Ruby had also told him he had tried to locate this
Weissman through the Post Office Department”--that’s correct--“but was
not able to do so.” Now, I think I’ve elaborated on what he did attempt
to do, but whether he had conversations with the Post Office and I
don’t know, but he did tell me that he did locate the box and that he
did put it under surveillance, so to speak, and told me that he saw
lots of mail in the box and that the box was loaded with mail.
Now--“Kaufman stated that Ruby told him he had been to the Dallas
Morning News and had raised ‘hell’ with the ad department for accepting
such an ad.” I would say that’s correct, and he went into great details
about this.
“Kaufman stated that from his contacts with Ruby and the civil matters
he had handled for him that he is aware that Ruby is quick-tempered,”
and that is correct, “and that in his opinion Ruby had no assistance or
guidance in connection with the shooting of Oswald.” I would say that
is a correct statement.
I will say Jack not only is quick-tempered, and I tried to explain to
these people, and that’s the two agents, that Jack was this type of
person--he would do things and then come ask you for advice, and I
related to them and showed them, Mr. Hubert, that he had been in my
office maybe a few days before all this with a little twistboard that
he had seen for sale, and he was going to take this twistboard and have
the Goodwill Industries make it so they would have a good deal, and
they were going to go out and sell twistboards. I mean, he just thought
this was a tremendous thing, and I got the twistboard out and showed it
to the agents. I still had it in my office at that time. I’ve given it
away since that time. Somebody wanted a twistboard so I let them have
it. Now, he had copied, practically without exception, the instructions
that someone else had on their twistboard. He had already gone to the
expense of having it printed and here he was coming to me to say, “Was
this all right?” Now, this is the type of a boy Jack Ruby was. He would
do things on impulse and then he would come back and say, like a child,
“Daddy, did I do right or did I do wrong?” This is the matter that I
tried to convey to them, that he is not only quick-tempered, but his
mentality--Jack is a smart boy, but Jack a lot of times would want you
to give him assurance that he was doing right, and I’ll say this--the
more I think about his telephone call to me, I think that maybe he
would like to say, “Well, Stanley, am I doing right?” I mean--this
is the way I would interpret it--“Pat me on the back and tell me I’m
doing something to help,” and unless a person knew him and had talked
to him and had been associated with him, you would have to have that
relationship before you could have this feeling.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him or see him after this conversation and
until the homicide?
Mr. KAUFMAN. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The conversation lasted, you say, about 15 or 20 minutes?
Mr. KAUFMAN. I would say it was extensive--it was longer than usually
people talk on the telephone. I’m sure you as a lawyer know that there
are times when you get bored listening to people on the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Louis McWillie at all?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Never--I just knew him by reputation. Actually, I don’t
know him by reputation. If I saw the man--I mean--I would never know
him. I wouldn’t know what he looked like.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you got the name “McWillie” from Ruby really, when he
told you about him?
Mr. KAUFMAN. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you’ve covered some of this and it may be
repetitious, but I think you are in a good position to tell us, if you
will, what do you know about Jack’s thoughts or attitudes towards the
various “isms” that exist in the world today, “rightism,” “leftism,”
and so forth?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Mr. Hubert, to be very honest with you and to be very
candid with you, I have never discussed it with Jack, so it would be
presumptuous again on my part to express opinions as to any political
philosophies, as far as any philosophies or doctrines he might have
toward any “isms.” I certainly would classify him--I think this--I
think I am certainly in a situation, having served in the Armed Forces
and having served in China and having been active in my community
supporting them financially as well as with works, I would certainly
classify Jack as to what I knew about him as a loyal American.
Mr. HUBERT. From what you knew of him as a person, would he be the
type of person that would be interested in international politics or
international ideological philosophies and so forth?
Mr. KAUFMAN. If he was, I had never discussed it with him. Actually,
as I explained to you, I’m sure that many of us even in the course of
legal conversation will digress somewhat and talk about sports or talk
about women or talk about a multitude of subjects. To the best of my
recollection I never had talked politics with Jack. I had never talked
anything that would give me any background where I can express an
opinion on that subject.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you express your opinion as to what his desires and
ambitions in life were?
Mr. KAUFMAN. Well, that covers a multitude of sins. I can say that in
the field of his business venture, I really think that Jack would liked
to have been a success in the field of entertainment. He had tried
many, many ribbons, and when I say “ribbons,” I mean they’ve changed
methods of operations.
I didn’t know Jack when he was in some other nightclub businesses. I
think he was being represented by some other attorneys. In fact, before
coming here this morning I tried to just recollect how I first met
Jack, and the best I could recall, I had talked to him a few times in
the lobby of the Mercantile Bank and who had introduced Jack to me, I
was trying to find out that, and I recall that he at that time used to
wear a short-sleeved sport shirt and a pair of trousers and a bunch of
keys on the back of his hip, and reminiscing how he had improved his
dress and all through that period of time, that Jack when he would come
to my office I would say generally would be dressed and attired well.
He would have on a tie and a suit, and I think he wanted to elevate
himself where he would be a success financially. I think honestly he
would have married Alice Nichols. For example, when we discussed this,
he didn’t think he was worthy of her, being a nightclub operator and
she a very fine legal secretary for a very fine attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you detect any sensitivity toward his background?
Mr. KAUFMAN. We never talked about his background. Not that he would
avoid it--naturally, there would be a time or occasion that certain
events would come up and he might say, “Well, it was pretty rough in
Chicago.” Jack had a finger off--I don’t know if you have seen Jack,
but he did tell me once that someone bit it off in a fight he had with
him. Now, whether that was in Dallas or Chicago, I don’t even know, and
whether that was true or not, I don’t know.
I was at the Worth Food Market, they have a kosher delicatessen up
there and I was checking out--I’d been up there buying some stuff and
I was up at the counter checking out and a little boy had his little
portable radio and all of a sudden I heard this kind of a report,
as I recall, “They are bringing Oswald down,” and the next thing is
this boom, and as I recall the news reporter said, “My goodness, one
of these trigger-happy detectives has shot Oswald” and they wouldn’t
identify who it was, and then they straightened it up and they said,
“No, it wasn’t a detective” but they wouldn’t identify him, but then
I get in the car and turn on the radio in the car and all of a sudden
they say it was Jack Ruby who was the person who had shot Lee Oswald,
and I liked to have died. I was going home, and my wife had heard it,
and she couldn’t believe it. She just talked about “what went wrong
with that crazy Jack?” She said, “He just must have been nuts,” but it
just was the most shocking thing I ever heard in my life when I heard
on the radio that Jack Ruby had gone to the police station and shot Lee
Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone contact you to represent him? I think it was
mentioned that he said that you would be one of his three lawyers?
Mr. KAUFMAN. I think he said he wanted any of these three--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He never contacted you about it?
Mr. KAUFMAN. He personally?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes?
Mr. KAUFMAN. He didn’t call me, but I had a call right after that from
some lady saying she was calling for his sister, and at that time
Oswald was still living, and they called me and they said “We know you
don’t handle these matters and maybe you could refer someone to us?”
Mr. HUBERT. Did she identify herself?
Mr. KAUFMAN. At the time she did, but I gave no significance to it.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know who it was?
Mr. KAUFMAN. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But she represented to you that she was calling on behalf
of Eva Grant?
Mr. KAUFMAN. That’s correct, and at that time I recommended Fred
Brunner, not that I recommended him on just this case, but we have had
other clients who have had problems. In fact, I have recommended one to
Fred within the last 2 or 3 weeks. I didn’t call him. I said, “To me, I
think Fred Brunner is a very able lawyer who could probably help them,”
and the next thing I get a call from Sam Daugherty who is in Fred
Brunner’s office and Sam says that the lady had called and that Fred
was out on his farm and said for me to call back and tell them that Sam
Daugherty was going to help them. Well, I tried to call back but their
phone was so busy I never was able to get back in touch with them,
but I was informed that Sam Daugherty and Fred Brunner went down, but
there was so much confusion down at the police station that they left
and that they went over to that office across the street where Colley
Sullivan has his office and watched it on TV. They figured--“we can’t
find out anything going on over here, but we can through this news.”
Now, we’ve talked about it since that time, in fact, I talked to Mr.
Brunner when I got my subpena. I asked him if he wanted to come over
and relate any of this to me, and I’m sure if anybody wanted to talk
to him, Brunner would be happy to relate what the situation was, but
all the lawyers were trying to get in on the act, that he just felt,
“Boy, this thing is so confusing, I’m taking off” and he apologized to
me about it, Mr. Hubert. He, as I say, is a very fine attorney, and to
him, he just didn’t know what was going on and neither did I nor did
anyone else, and so I just dropped the thing.
Mr. HUBERT. You never were contacted by anybody further as a matter of
fact?