it wouldn’t be charged off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you mean for tax purposes?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I was thinking of for straight business accounting whether
you could tell from the records whether he had a net profit after
everything was taken off.
Mr. KLEINMAN. It is hard to say in that business because you would have
to take in a certain amount of money. You don’t know whether you have
a profit or loss until you bring in all of your expenditures, your
entertaining help and other help that he might have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the basis though of what he did bring in to you, did he
show a net profit?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I didn’t get that far on it, because there was a
lot of information that he had there that I couldn’t identify readily,
and I had to get him to explain some of the transactions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack his
religious beliefs?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Beg your pardon?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack his
religious beliefs?
Mr. KLEINMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever express to you any concern or sensitivity
about his position in Dallas as a Jewish person?
Mr. KLEINMAN. No; I have never gone into it. I never discussed anything
like that with him. In the first place, when he came up to see me,
the main thing I was interested in was getting his reports that he
had to file quarterly, because they were behind originally, and I was
trying to get him up to date on it, and it took up so much time, that I
couldn’t discuss anything with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where Jack Ruby maintained his bank account?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, he had a small bank account. I think it is in the
Merchants State Bank. I think that is the name of the bank. I have got
it in the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other, that you recall?
Mr. KLEINMAN. No. There might have been another account, but I don’t
remember what bank it would be, because the bank accounts he had were
very small. I think most of his business was handled out of his pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mr. Ruby’s friend, George Senator?
Mr. KLEINMAN. I met him downtown. I met him, if I remember correctly, I
first met him in the Statler’s Men Shop. I think he was selling. He was
a salesman representing, I don’t know whether it is men’s line or what
line of merchandise it is he was representing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him at all on November 22 or 23 or 24?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Who is that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. George Senator.
Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t think so. I don’t remember seeing him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, where were you at the time you learned
that President Kennedy had been shot?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I was in this restaurant that burned down here
on Commerce Street next to the Picadilly. I don’t know whether it is
right next to it, or either one door away. Someone came in and said the
President had been shot, and I knew that the parade had just passed
by. I was on Akard and Main Street. And we thought they were kidding
because it was so fast, they would get the news out so quick.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you heard that?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I walked up the street there to Sol’s Turf Bar and
they had it turned on television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain on Friday at Sol’s?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t remember. I usually go by there every
evening. He is one of my clients.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were Friday evening?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t think I could remember exactly where I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturday, did you have occasion to go to Sol’s Turf
Bar?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes. I usually go there on Saturdays to make up their
payroll, and that Saturday, if I am not mistaken, I was at the barber
shop until about, oh, maybe 2:30 or a quarter to three. Then when I
left there I went over to Sol’s to make up the payroll, and Jack Ruby
was in there that afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack in there when you walked in the door, or
was it sometime later?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, he was in there when I walked in, and he left
within about, oh, just a few minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was Jack when you first saw him in the bar?
Mr. KLEINMAN. That afternoon?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. KLEINMAN. He was in Sol’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts? In a booth, or at a table, or along the bar?
Mr. KLEINMAN. No; he was standing there talking to two or three people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who those people were?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t recall. One of them was Frank Belocchio.
I don’t recall who else was in there. There was a group of people in
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you saw Jack?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well. I didn’t do anything. I said hello to him. He was
showing them some pictures that he either made or he took off of a
signpost somewhere regarding somebody that put them on there. I think
the sign was supposed to read, or did read--I didn’t take a good look
at it--to impeach Warren. And, of course, I hadn’t heard anything about
it, and I didn’t even know where he got it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear Jack say anything about those pictures?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well. I don’t remember what he said, but he seemed to
be upset about the pictures. I don’t know what their conversation was
before I came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the conversation after you came in?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well. I don’t think there was anything except, you know,
he mentioned about those pictures on the Warren impeachment, and then
they were looking at an advertisement out of the News. Someone had a
full page advertisement about President Kennedy, I think it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate whether or not he knew who Mr. Warren
was?
Mr. KLEINMAN. No: he didn’t. Well. I imagine he knew that he was a
Chief Justice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was he upset about the photograph?
Mr. KLEINMAN. That I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there?
Mr. KLEINMAN. I beg your pardon?
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there at that conversation?
Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t know how long I did stay in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you present during the conversation?
Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t think I was there over 2 or 3 minutes, because I
went back in the back to try to get the payroll out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Ralph Paul?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Oh, just a very short time. Jack introduced me to him up
at the club, and, of course, I knew the name from the records that I
was working on, but I don’t know him very well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see Ralph Paul at any time the
weekend the President was shot?
Mr. KLEINMAN. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see any friends or employees of
Jack Ruby on that weekend?
Mr. KLEINMAN. No, sir. I believe he closed the place up on Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for the purpose of identification a
document which is an interview report prepared by two FBI agents,
Lansing P. Logan, and Alton E. Bramblett. I am going to mark this
document “Abraham Kleinman, Deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”
This report consists of 3 pages that are numbered consecutively, 317,
318, and 319. The report pertains to an interview which Logan and
Bramblett had with you on December 7, 1963. I will ask you to look
at that and read it and tell me if it is an accurate report of the
conversation they had with you on that day.
Mr. KLEINMAN (after reading). No; it’s got one mistake here. It says
certified. I am not certified. I am a registered public accountant.
This 59 here, I think I may have said 59, but it is about--I am 61 last
December--about 58 years here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that pertain to? What does the year 1953 refer
to?
Mr. KLEINMAN. It don’t say. It just says 59 years here in the Dallas
area. That is close enough. That is about right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any additions or corrections that you think
should be in this?
Mr. KLEINMAN. Well, I don’t think I know of any. I don’t recall any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me ask you then if you will sign your name on
the first page and initial the next 2 pages.
Mr. KLEINMAN (signs and initials).
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just any place that is conspicuous. Thank you very much.
Mr. KLEINMAN. I don’t recall anything else that I would know. In fact,
I have been so darn busy I haven’t had time to even read the paper. I
have read some of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If there is anything that should come to your attention
that you think would be valuable to the Commission, I will appreciate
your letting us know.
Mr. KLEINMAN. Sometime you hear a lot of different conversations which
it doesn’t make sense. People form opinions and this and that. It is
all foreign to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard any information of anything about how Jack
Ruby got into the basement of the Dallas Police Department on November
24?
Mr. KLEINMAN. No; that I didn’t. I don’t know how he could get in there
myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information pertaining to anybody who
might have given him any assistance or urged him in any way?
Mr. KLEINMAN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming here. It was
nice to meet you.
Mr. KLEINMAN. Nice meeting you.
TESTIMONY OF WILMA MAY TICE
The testimony of Wilma May Tice was taken at 3:20 p.m., on July 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record while Mrs. Tice is here, that
I have talked with your husband for a few minutes and I have explained
to him that the decision as to whether or not other people are to be in
the hearing room with us is the one that the witness makes, and that we
have permitted public hearings at the request of the witness, and we
have had private hearings at most of these. After I talked with him at
some length, I think he agreed with me that if it was your wish that he
not be in here, that we go ahead and have this as a private hearing. So
I will first of all ask you, Mrs. Tice, if you would like to go ahead
privately, or if you would prefer to have your husband in here?
Mrs. TICE. I would prefer not to have my husband in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. My name is Burt Griffin,
and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I want to explain
to you preliminarily that what we are doing here and how we are set up
and then I will ask you to take the oath and testify.
Mrs. TICE. Let me ask you first, is this to be told to my husband?
Mr. GRIFFIN. We will not tell your husband about it, but we are taking
a printed transcript and these will all be public records eventually,
and it will certainly be available to your husband to read if he should
ever want to. Now, if you would prefer not to testify about this, why I
think that we are not going to ask you to do it.
Mrs. TICE. You mean I don’t have to testify? I don’t have to say
anything if I don’t want to?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; if you would prefer not to testify, why, I am not
going to compel you to do it. We asked you to come here because the
FBI had interviewed you, and we wanted to get under oath what they had
reported to us previously. But as I say, if you have domestic reasons
why you don’t want to talk about this, we are certainly not going to
force you to do it.
Mrs. TICE. Will I be subpenaed later for something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. We will not subpena you. The report is in the records.
Mrs. TICE. There is nothing I want to retract.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I can’t assure you that the Ruby family won’t ask
you to testify in court some day.
Mrs. TICE. Well, what is it you want to know from me now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, we were going to talk to you about matters that you
talked to the FBI about.
Mrs. TICE. That is all?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all.
Mrs. TICE. OK.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you rather think about this? There is no reason why
you have to make a decision today about it.
Mrs. TICE. Well, I mean if you just want me to tell you the story, that
story over again, I would rather do it right now, because my husband is
so upset now because I had to come up here again with that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you know that we can’t, that the chances are 99 out
of 100 that your husband will find out what your testimony was. You are
aware of that?
Mrs. TICE. Is that from a promise that you made that he would be able
to see it later?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that is simply because this is all going to be a part
of a public record, and it will be available for anyone to look at, and
it will be easily accessible to anyone in Dallas to look at.
Mrs. TICE. When?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In a couple of months.
Mrs. TICE. Not before that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, whenever the report is published. I would guess in
early fall that the report will be out.
Mrs. TICE. Well, go ahead and ask me whatever you want to ask me now,
whatever it is you want to know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me explain to you then that the Commission, as you
know, was set up to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy,
and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. I have already explained why we
have asked you to come here, and I am designated under the rules of the
Commission to take your testimony.
Now, I might also advise you that you are entitled to be represented by
counsel and consult with an attorney if you would like to before you
come in here. Also, you are entitled to have 3 days’ written notice
before you come to testify. Did you get a letter from us, incidentally?
Mrs. TICE. Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So if you would like to consult with an attorney before
you testify, we can let you do that, too. Be happy to.
Mrs. TICE. I got this from Washington.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. TICE. It said that Hubert, Jr. and Burt Griffin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin.
Mrs. TICE. This letter here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes ma’am.
Mrs. TICE. Well, what do you want to know?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand and I will
administer the oath to you. I hope we understand that you are
testifying freely and voluntarily. Do you have any reservations about
testifying?
Mrs. TICE. I don’t know if it is going to cause any more trouble than
it already has. I don’t see how it could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me put it this way. Would you prefer not to testify?
Mrs. TICE. Not necessarily.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, why don’t you raise your right hand and I will
administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God?
Mrs. TICE. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name, please?
Mrs. TICE. Wilma May Tice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mrs. Tice?
Mrs. TICE. 8406 Lakemont Drive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?
Mrs. TICE. Dallas 9, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born, Mrs. Tice?
Mrs. TICE. March 3, 1925.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are married?
Mrs. TICE. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been married?
Mrs. TICE. December 6, 1948. Fifteen years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any children?
Mrs. TICE. We have three adopted children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?
Mrs. TICE. No; I am not employed and haven’t been since I worked for
the juvenile department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you work for the juvenile department?
Mrs. TICE. When we adopted our last two children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you adopt them through the juvenile department?
Mrs. TICE. We did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When is that that you last worked for them?
Mrs. TICE. I guess 1961.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old are your children?
Mrs. TICE. The youngest one is 6, will be 7 in August. The next one is
8, was 8 June 28. And the little boy is 9, and will be 10 November 19.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What job did you have with the juvenile department?
Mrs. TICE. I was the manager of the foster home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you were the manager of the foster home?
Mrs. TICE. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that mean?
Mrs. TICE. When the police or the sheriff or anybody picks up the
little children that have been abandoned, or if there has been trouble
or anything, well, the police bring them to me and bring me a police
sheet on it, and in return I call the juvenile department, and then
they know how to appoint what social worker that should be appointed to
the case.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You took care of the children until a home was found for
them?
Mrs. TICE. No; I was the manager. I took care of the children until
they were assigned to a worker, or if I would get too many children,
the supervisor would come out and we had foster homes that would take
the children until their hearing or what-have-you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the children would actually live in your home?
Mrs. TICE. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you do that?
Mrs. TICE. For a year or a little over. Maybe a year, or going on 2
years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jack Ruby before November 22?
Mrs. TICE. No; I did not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you follow the Ruby trial in the newspapers?
Mrs. TICE. I saw some of the news, yes; I did, but then I had a wreck
January 23, and January 23 I was pretty sick until April 21. I mean, I
had trouble with vision and was going to the doctor every day, and was
in bed practically all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of injury did you sustain in the accident?
Mrs. TICE. Well, I had something wrong with the optical nerves or
pinched nerves in my neck from a whiplash, and pulled muscles in my
shoulder, and something, I don’t know what he said, this vertebra was
cramped against the other vertebra, and had a nerve pinched in between
it or under.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this an automobile accident?
Mrs. TICE. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you rendered unconscious in the accident?
Mrs. TICE. Well, I guess I was slightly in shock. I am not sure. I
mean, well, I was pretty frightened. I mean I wouldn’t let the officer
take me to the doctor. I wanted to wait until my husband got home to
take me to the doctor, because my husband can be there in 5 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you hospitalized?
Mrs. TICE. No; I was not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think about the outcome of the Ruby trial?
Mrs. TICE. I don’t know what to think about it. I really don’t know
what to think about it. I mean, as far as the trial is concerned, I
don’t understand it at all. I mean, there is just a lot of it I don’t
understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any feeling about whether Jack was treated
fairly or not?
Mrs. TICE. That part I couldn’t say. I don’t know whether he was
treated fairly or not. I just wouldn’t even know if he was treated
fairly, because I wasn’t up there. I mean, I can’t say. I felt like,
I guess what you really want to know is how in the beginning I talked
with Eva?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that’s right.
Mrs. TICE. Well, I called Eva. It was no more than a sympathy call.
And when I called her I didn’t get her on the phone. I got Eileen on
the phone. And I felt sorry for them because they had been so deserted
for something that their brother had done. They had been rejected by
everybody, and I felt sorry for them. I mean just like I try to teach
my children, right is right and wrong is wrong, and I try to abide by
the same thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You called for the purpose of cheering her up, was that
it, in some way?
Mrs. TICE. Yes. I called her after the verdict. It was after the
verdict that I called her to give her my sympathy. That is why. And
then I talked with Eileen. And instead, she said Eva was rather upset.
Then in talking with Eileen, I think she called or I don’t know, I
talked again--I don’t know if Eva called me, or Eileen called me, but
something was mentioned about their brother being out at the hospital,
and at the time I said to her it was really a shock to me to see--I
mean I was in the kitchen when I heard the news, and the children said
when they were transferring him, Ruby did this. And she said they were
so shocked and all tore up, and I said yes, it was quite a shock to me
because seeing him just 2 days later out at the hospital wanting to
give Governor Connally a kidney, that he could go down and try to save
one life, and go take another life, it just didn’t make sense. And she
said, “Oh, he is sick, he is just sick.” And said, “He has been acting
just peculiar ever since this thing happened.” And she told me then
that another time, well, Eileen asked if she could come and talk to me,
if she could come out to the house. So she and Eva came out, and two
newspaper reporters came along with me. Art Sinclair and this other
one, I don’t know what his name was. Anyway, they were talking to me
about Ruby being out to the hospital, and that is just about all I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Tice, did you know that Jack himself has denied very
vehemently he was out at the hospital?
Mrs. TICE. Yes; I know he denied that, and I hated to say that I saw
him out there, and I told Eva. And Eva told me, “Well, I asked Jack and
Jack said no, he wasn’t out there.” And I said, “Well, anybody can make
a mistake. Anybody could have made a mistake.” She said, “Yes, because
there are many Jacks. A man called Jack,”--and if it wasn’t him it was
his twin brother.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you could have been mistaken about the man
you saw?
Mrs. TICE. It could have been somebody else that looked just like Jack,
named Jack; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had been really sure of it that you saw him out
there, wouldn’t you have reported it to the FBI or the police in late
November or early December?
Mrs. TICE. Now this is where my husband’s part comes in. He doesn’t
like for me to go out of that house unless he is with me. He goes down
to the farm every weekend, and I was at home alone. My children were in
school and everybody was gone. I mean, not only me, but everybody in
Dallas was looking and listening. And I decided that I would jump in
the car and run over there too. It is only 15 minutes from my house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean when you went to Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. TICE. When I went to Parkland Hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your husband object to the fact that you had gone to
Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. TICE. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has this disturbed you, his objection to that?
Mrs. TICE. Yes: it disturbs me all the time, because he doesn’t want me
to go out of the house while he is gone, because he says my place is in
the house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you were really sure that the man you saw out there
was Jack Ruby, wouldn’t you have reported it to the police or the FBI
within a few days, or called them on the telephone, or something like
that and told them about it very shortly after Jack shot Oswald?
Mrs. TICE. No; because I thought they knew everything. I didn’t know
that Eva and them didn’t know he went out there, or I wouldn’t have
said that to her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You assumed that when you said that, that they knew?
Mrs. TICE. That they knew he was out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That they thought he was out there?
Mrs. TICE. I assumed they knew he was out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you read the article that one of the newspaper
reporters wrote who also said he saw Jack Ruby out at the Parkland
Hospital.
Mrs. TICE. No, sir: I didn’t read that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not familiar with that?
Mrs. TICE. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason you are telling us that you didn’t call the FBI
earlier is that you assumed that they knew that he was out at Parkland,
that he had been at Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. TICE. I assumed that they knew everywhere he had been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you expect that they would have known that unless
somebody told them about it?
Mrs. TICE. Well, they are talking to the news all the time, and Eva
said they tracked him down from here to there and said that they had
asked her all about it and everything. And she wanted to know what time
I saw him out there. I said, “I don’t know what time it was, but I know
that I was out at the hospital by 1 o’clock, and I know that I was back
at my house at 3 o’clock, because my children get home from school at
10 after 3, and when they come home I am home.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you stood out there before you saw this man
that you thought was Jack Ruby?
Mrs. TICE. Well, there was some lady and some little child with some
group of people standing there and I asked them what they were doing
now and she said, “Well, they haven’t said anything.” And she said she
can’t hear anything. This is when I saw the one that at that time I
didn’t know was anybody like Jack Ruby, and then this man that came up
to him and slapped him on the shoulder and started talking to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this man that you think was Jack Ruby, how
long did he stand out there next to you?
Mrs. TICE. I was standing about 3 feet from them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he standing in relation to you. Was he in front
of you or behind you, or off to the side, or where was he?