President,” with the grievance committee to----
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think that signifies about Jack’s concern?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He didn’t like the signature for one which was a Jewish
name. And he thought it was another organization disgracing the Jews.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you get that impression that that was his--how do
you get that impression?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the way it would hit me. Why would an
organization like this put down the name Weissman and put down all
these grievances in the newspapers with a black border around it and
then--oh, when he couldn’t find--when Jack couldn’t find--the name of
the owner of the post office box so he asked the clerk, “Does this
ad belong to Oswald,” and the clerk says, “I can’t answer you that,
either.” He thought there was a connection between this and Oswald, and
Oswald was using a phoney name in the ad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack told you any of that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva, because Eva spoke to Jack about it, and Jack told
Eva that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your understanding that Eva learned this from
Jack?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From Jack directly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he thought Oswald was using a phoney name in the
advertisement and trying to disgrace the Jews?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And also disgracing the President. You don’t call a
President Mr. Kennedy. You call him Mr. President with respect to his
title. And also trying to disgrace the name of Earl Warren, Supreme
Court Justice of the United States.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he thought Oswald might have done the same thing?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right or his organization or somebody connected with
that group whoever it was. He couldn’t understand it, somebody was
doing it. There was the evidence and that bothered him. It kept boiling
in him and boiling in him and finally he blew up and when he saw Oswald
then he really blew up, and that is all I can tell you, gentlemen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know or have you heard of anything that happened in
Dallas between the time the President was shot and the time that Jack
shot Oswald----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have led Jack to think that other people
thought the Jews were behind the assassination of the President?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I did not hear anything like that. You see we
didn’t go down to Dallas--I didn’t go down there to Dallas--until
almost Christmas time. That was almost a whole month so I didn’t know
anything about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to make sure my question is clear because it is
possible that it can be misunderstood. I am not suggesting that the
Jews were--that the Jews were behind the assassination.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Of course not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am suggesting is that there might have been that
kind of talk in Dallas which might have disturbed Jack and whether you
heard that there was, whether you heard that there was such kind of
talk going on in Dallas that did disturb him.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The only talk that I heard from people in Dallas that
there are a lot of anti-Semites who don’t like Jews. That is the only
talk I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where? Had you heard that before you went down to Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; after I got down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any personal experiences with Jack that would
shed some light on his sensitivity about his position as a person of
Jewish background in the community--personal experiences that you would
have?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except what I heard from the Bund meetings in Chicago
from his friends. His own friends told me he used to go break them up,
and that takes a little guts to walk into a meeting and break it up, in
my opinion. How many guys would do that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to digress here a bit.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Good, go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you, when you were traveling in Michigan on your job,
did you have occasion to visit Earl, your brother Earl, at his home?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. At the plant?
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the plant.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure; several times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to use his telephone, make
calls from his plant?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I possibly could have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--have you ever had any dealings with any people in
Massachusetts in the course of your business?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; the Necco Confectionery Co., 254 Massachusetts
Avenue, Cambridge 39, Mass.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were your dealings with them?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If you give me an order for $100 or $150 for ribbons
or for novelties whatever you use in your florist business, I like
you. I like you. So I go to my car and I says, “Wait a minute, I have
got something for the wife, not for you,” tease you. I go over and I
get a can of imported English candy. “Take this home to the family.”
“Thank you, Hy, come back again, you are a nice guy.” That is how I had
business in Massachusetts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you doing this now?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always. I still do it. I got a half case home now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other candy companies you deal with?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Flavor; same thing. I buy half pound bags of hard
candy, if the order is only $50, I can’t afford to give them a box of
candy, mints.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Welch Candy Co.?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never, don’t even know them. But I think this Necco
bought out the Welch Co., but I am not sure. That Necco is a big outfit
now but I never done any business with Welch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had any occasion to communicate with any
people in Latin America?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes: I think I sent down one time a sample, somebody
gave them my name, how I got it, I don’t know, some ribbons. He wanted
me to quote them prices on ribbons. So I mailed them some sample
ribbons. I never heard from them no more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember, this was years ago, 5, 6 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--have you any occasion to communicate with
anybody in Havana?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know anybody in Havana. Jack had friends there.
Jack had a lot of friends there when the gambling was going good and
one of his friends from Dallas was a big shot down there and he invited
Jack down. Jack told me this himself. He invited Jack down to stay with
him for a week and Jack flew down, I think, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this question directly.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever having sent a telegram to Havana, Cuba,
from your brother Earl’s telephone?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A telegram? No. I would have no reason for it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anybody outside of Earl’s family or
employees who might have used his business phone?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Earl has got 110 employees, God bless him. You know
anybody can pick up a phone in an office with 110 employees and make a
call or call Western Union and charge it to the phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you outside of that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I never did, no. Havana, Cuba, is as strange to
me as what was that word I gave you before, as Rhodesia. I think Jack
went down there one time and he had a connection for automobiles. This
was when Castro first went down there, I think it was in 1950. At that
time Castro was a friend of the United States. Jack was going to try to
sell them a lot of trucks or cars or something. Anyhow, the deal fell
through, whatever it was, with his friends from Dallas; may I add this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If you are trying to infer that Jack had any
connections with Castro or communism, that is not our brother. First of
all, Jack couldn’t even spell communism. I mean it in the sense of the
word, the relationship, none.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say I don’t want to infer anything. I am simply
asking you questions to clarify matters.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You can clarify it right now. I will bet my life
that Jack wouldn’t have anything to do and never did with anybody.
Jack didn’t go for that kind of stuff. He wasn’t that kind of a man.
These Communists are supposed to be well read, beatniks, students
of universities. Jack doesn’t qualify for that kind of a deal. His
friends are showgirls, tavern owners, gamblers, other nightclub people,
promoters, manufacturers, that was his life, that is all. He opened two
nightclubs. What has he got to do with these other kinds of people?
What has he got to gain by it? He was doing good. He wore good clothes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any political interests?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t think so; not in Dallas, I don’t think in
Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any political interest in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was the only politician but we were all Democrats for
me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack get involved in politics at all in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever discuss politics with him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I never even knew the incidents about the chair with
Roosevelt until this manager of the Zebra, the manager of the Zebra
Cafe on 63d Street, I have got to get you his name----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Told me about it. I never heard of it because he
doesn’t talk about those things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that you want to bring to
the attention of the Commission?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was a loyal 1,000 percent American, served in the
Army for 3 years with the best record of our family, of all the boys
who were in the service, and by the way, when my father went down with
Jack and Earl and Sammy to enlist in the service, my father says to the
recruiting officer, “Take me” and he must have been at least 65 years
old.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t go into the service until some time in 1943?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right. After I came out he went in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jack applied for deferment initially, didn’t he?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; because he was the only one home. We were all in.
My mother was alone. Earl was in, Earl was in the Seabees, Sammy was in
the Air Corps and I was in the Field Artillery.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There has been a rumor that Jack feigned a hearing
disability in order to avoid military service?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Not Jack. No; not Jack. No; he was a good soldier and
I told you before he had the best record of all of us on his discharge
papers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think maybe we can conclude here. I am asking you to
identify some interview reports that we have, and I will give you a
chance to read them over. I am going to mark for identification three
different exhibits.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. O.K.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first one is an interview report prepared by Special
Agent George H. Parfet.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to start with these chronologically. The first one
is a copy of an interview report prepared by special agents of the FBI,
Maurice J. White and Robert B. Lee, of an interview that they had with
you on November 24, 1963, in Chicago.
I am going to mark this “Washington, D.C., deposition of Hyman
Rubenstein, June 5th, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.” This consists of two pages
numbered at the bottom 193 and 194, respectively.
I will hand you the exhibit and ask you to read it over and then I will
ask you some questions about it.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is about correct. Because I didn’t know anything
else.
(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to examine Exhibit No. 3.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any corrections you feel ought to be made in
that report?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The only thing I am doubtful is this, “He then had Jack
as a salesman for several companies believed to be the Stanley Oliver
Company and the Spartan Company now defunct.” That I am sure about.
That is the only paragraph. The rest of it is 100 percent true. And
that is the way it was as I remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you not sure that he had jobs with both companies?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The Spartan Co. there was such a company and Jack and
Harry Epstein was his partner at that time and they sold novelties and
premiums.
By the way, Harry Epstein was a business associate of Jack’s for a good
many years and knows him well. If there is anything that you might want
to find out about his impetuousness or his decisive manner, because
Harry and Jack always fought verbally, so Harry can give you a pretty
good reason or reasons of his personality in that respect.
I don’t know where you can find Harry. He could be in Chicago, he could
be anywhere.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The family has lost track of him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, look; when the partnership breaks up--normally
the partner comes over to the house and you meet him and see him and
you have lunch with him. But when it breaks up you lose all contact
with those people because he wasn’t my contact, he was Jack’s contact.
And Jack being in Dallas all these years we didn’t even see Harry.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Harry, would you say Harry, was one of the people who
knew him best when he lived in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. One of the best.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you say, who else would you say, knew Jack best
when Jack lived in Chicago?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Benny Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his connection with Benny Kay.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Very dear friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any business associates?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know as any business associates but Benny Kay
is a well respected businessman in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking for important people who knew him.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Let’s say they bummed around together quite a bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But if we were to go out and look for people who knew Jack
better than anybody else, outside of the family, who were the people
that you would name?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Put his name down, Benny Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else would you name?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Harry Epstein.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Hershey Colvin, and this Marty Gimpel that died, Marty
could have given you a better report than anybody. Because Marty lived
with him down in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about Chicago.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Marty knew him from Chicago. Marty worked at the post
office in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Alex Gruber?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Don’t know him. Never heard his name. Isn’t that odd?
Of all the names that are in Chicago I never heard of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sam Gordon?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sam Gordon was a business associate of Jack, but not as
good as these others. Sam was in the highlight of the depression and
then moved to L.A.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So your idea was Benny Kay, Hershey Colvin and Harry
Epstein outside of Marty Gimpel who is now deceased?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Those would be three as far as I know. You see we all
had our own friends, so I didn’t know too many of Jack’s except when he
would bring them to the house or we would meet somewhere by accident,
downtown, somewhere, you know, run into each other in the street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked--incidentally,
if you are satisfied with that----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except for what I told you here the only incident was
this Stanley Oliver Corp., I don’t know whether Jack sold any stuff,
maybe he did. I don’t know about those things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you then sign on the first page, Exhibit No. 3?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it in some conspicuous place.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. How about down here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. I will hand you now what I have marked for
identification as “Exhibit No. 4, Washington, D.C., June 5th, 1964,
deposition of Hyman Rubenstein.” This is a copy of the interview
report prepared by Special Agent George Parfet in connection with an
interview he had with you on November 27, 1963, in Chicago.
Take the time to read that, and tell us whether there are any
corrections that you would make in that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. This is the part I forgot to tell you about, when Jack
called and told me about the newspaper, I forgot, I couldn’t exactly
remember. That is exactly what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When he called about the newspaper with the ad with the
black border about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He called you?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I believe he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said before that he called Eva and that you learned
about this from Eva.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It could have been. But according to this, according to
this, “The exact time of the shooting of the President of the United
States his brother Jack had been in the office of a newspaper.”
It could have been that Eva told me this. You are right. That is right.
Because he came over and had breakfast with Eva and he had tried to
explain to her about the ad, whether she had noticed it, Eva said,
“What do I notice about an ad?”
He said, “With the black border around it, and the, what was that word
I used before, the twenty, what is that word where you have----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Grievances?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Grievances. The grievances. It was Eva. Should I sign
this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would.
(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You are bringing back a lot of--what a deal.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you remember anything in the course of reading that we
haven’t covered, why let’s have it. Now is the time.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, I don’t know. It is hard, gentlemen, it isn’t
easy. It wasn’t a pleasant experience. It was a sad experience, and
your mind wants to block out those things that you don’t want to
remember. So, it is hard to remember every incident or every detail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If things come to your mind.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Because the reason we have asked you to come here is so
that we can get----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I know. Look, we had nothing to hide. Any member of
the family will cooperate 100 percent. Any of our friends and lawyers
will cooperate 100 percent or we want to know why. We don’t believe
in shooting Presidents. Let’s put it that way. We love this country,
and we make our living here, we all served in the army here. We were
brought up in this country, and it is our duty to cooperate with a law
enforcement agency or any agency that wants to investigate a thing of
this type.
It is unfortunate that our brother Jack had to be involved but many of
our friends feel that he is a hero because they felt they would have
done the same thing under similar circumstances.
How can a man premeditate, his dog Sheba was in the car, $2,000 in
cash, all that photographic equipment in the back trunk with the adding
machine and the tire, the dog is waiting for him, and Jack happened
to carry the gun because that was the night’s receipts in the car and
he happened to have it with him and if that girl in Fort Worth hadn’t
called him that morning at 10 o’clock, Jack would still have been
sleeping and forgotten all about it.
So, the man must have blacked out, nothing else could convince me,
and nothing else convinces any of my friends that I talked to. People
who don’t even know him they said that is what must have happened.
He blacked out. I understand that Jack cried like a baby when the
President was shot. He cried more than when his own father died. His
own father was 88 years old when he passed away in the year of 1958, I
believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Rubenstein, who did you hear about the crying from?
Who told you about the crying?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva; he made her sick. He came over there crying.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Also from the rabbi in Dallas. He went to synagogue
Saturday night, and he cried, and there is witnesses to prove it in the
synagogue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there people in the synagogue who saw him?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. People in the synagogue that saw him crying when they
had a special, some services for the President and they saw him crying
and the rabbi saw him crying. They didn’t believe a guy like Jack would
ever cry. I don’t know the rabbi’s name but----
Mr. GRIFFIN. Silverman.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Silverman. He will testify to that and he will bring
witnesses who saw him cry. Jack never cried in his life. He is not that
kind of a guy to cry. Never complained about nothing. Never talked
about any heroic deeds that he ever did. He didn’t go for that stuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He wasn’t; you wouldn’t characterize him as somebody who
bragged?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Far from it. He was reticent in that respect. But to
help somebody in an emergency, the first one on the street to raise
money for any occasion. Any policeman or fireman got hurt or the
family needed something he is out there right away selling tickets,
and chances are there wasn’t enough, he paid the difference himself
whatever was needed.
Eva told me that, too. He didn’t tell me that. I heard it from people
down in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as “Washington, D.C.
deposition of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5th, 1964, Exhibit No. 5.” This is
a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agent John Golden as a
result of an interview that he had with you in Chicago on December 9,
1963.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that interview?
(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; that is the truth like I told you. I don’t
remember the dates. I know how I met John Paul Jones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Paul Roland Jones.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, John Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The fellow in the trial at Laredo, is that it?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; how come it is John Paul Jones here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is apparently the name you gave. You understood the
man’s name to be John Paul Jones.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, you see I didn’t even know his right name then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Jones you met you recall as being named John Paul
Jones?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; that is the name he gave me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any corrections or additions you would make to
that statement?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; this is the truth. Jack did not know Jones--Jack
wasn’t down there at the time when I went down there. Eva was alone
down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say go down there do you mean----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Dallas. When I had to go down to Laredo I stopped off
in Dallas to see Eva.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the time you are referring to going to Texas is when
you went to the trial or was it another time?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; regarding this, Laredo.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and you say when you went to the trial in Laredo it
is your understanding Jack was not living in Dallas?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Definitely. Do you want me to sign this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, please. Very good. I say that because I
appreciate your coming here and talking with us and taking this time,
and I will ask you once again if there is anything else----
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. These two things I will get for you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would we would appreciate that.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is all right. It is the least I can do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If there is anything else?
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Anything also you might want to know drop me a note and
I will be glad to answer it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We appreciate your cooperation.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We would like to get a new trial for Jack. Some of
my friends say Jack should have gotten the Congressional Medal of
Honor. They feel the same way I do about it. People say to me, why
didn’t he wait for the investigation? How stupid can people be? Then
it is premeditated. You don’t do things like that. Why wait for an
investigation? Sure, it would have been a wonderful thing to have done
but you can’t, you don’t know what is in the other man’s mind. I blame
everything on the stupid Dallas police from every angle, even from that
angle up there. They knew Oswald was in town, why didn’t they grab him.
That is my opinion. They blame everything on Jack, the scapegoat, the
poor guy has got to take it for the whole police department down there.
You know that is the truth and I mean it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your frankness in this
matter and your willingness to express your opinion.
Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You can call me anytime, if you want me to come back
again I will be glad to come back, anytime. If I am out of town I will
have to wait to pick up my letter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I hope we won’t have to trouble you again and thank you
very much for coming.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM S. BIGGIO
The testimony of William S. Biggio was taken at 5 p.m., on April 2,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr. JENNER. Would you stand, please, and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear in your testimony before this Commission that you
will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. BIGGIO. I will.
Mr. JENNER. Would you state your full name, and spell it, please?