Mr. BARNETT. There was no instructions; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now from where you were standing at position 1 prior to
the motorcade's arrival, you were in a position to view the windows on
the entire south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building;
were you not?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you look up at those windows?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many times did you look up at those windows before
the motorcade came? Can you tell us with what frequency?
Mr. BARNETT. I looked up twice. Maybe once at 11, probably a few
minutes after 11--probably a few minutes after 11. It was raining part
of the morning, and when I found out that the people in the building
were going to come outside and watch the President, I looked up at the
building, and then I looked at all the buildings, and there were no
windows that I noticed open then. But after a few minutes before the
President came by, I didn't look any more. I started watching the crowd.
Mr. LIEBELER. So just before the motorcade approached, you moved over
and also stopped the automobile traffic and were observing the crowd,
so you did not look at the windows on or about the time the motorcade
came?
Mr. BARNETT. I couldn't. I was too busy. [Referring to picture.] I got
this in the wrong place. It needs to be about this position right here,
instead of here. I was right here. I got it too far, but I could see
the President's car from the position I was, so I had to be right here
[pointing].
Mr. LIEBELER. You are satisfied you were further out into the
intersection?
Mr. BARNETT. Right there [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. [Marking]. In the general vicinity of No. 9?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; the car passed within a few feet of me, and I
was holding some people, or seeing that they stayed back, and one small
boy started. I was afraid he was going to get too close and I stopped
him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now the motorcade made the turn onto Elm Street from
Houston Street, and you were standing at approximately in position No.
9, and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired: is that
right?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many shots did you hear?
Mr. BARNETT. Three.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there any echo in the area from where you were
standing?
Mr. BARNETT. What do you mean by echo? You mean another sound besides
the shots?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. BARNETT. No; I didn't hear any echo. The whole sound echoed. The
sound lingered, but as far as just two definite distinct sounds, when
each shot was fired, that one sound would linger in the air, but there
would be nothing else until the next shot.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see any of the shots hit the President?
Mr. BARNETT. Well, when the first shot--I was looking at the President
when the first shot was fired, and I thought I saw him slump down,
but I am not sure, and I didn't look any more then. I thought he was
ducking then.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now when you were standing up there in position No. 9,
you were in a spot where you could look right down Elm Street and see
the railroad tracks down here which pass over the triple underpass?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody on the railroad tracks?
Mr. BARNETT. One or two officers. Two officers, I believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. Was there anybody else, as far as you can recall?
Mr. BARNETT. That is all I saw.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have an opinion when you heard the shots as to
where they came from?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you think about them?
Mr. BARNETT. When the first shot was fired, I thought it was a
firecracker, and I looked across the street. In fact, I scanned the
whole area to see where people would jump or move or make some action.
Mr. LIEBELER. You couldn't tell specifically where it had come from?
Mr. BARNETT. Not the first one, but I thought it was a firecracker. But
none of the people moved or took any action, whereas they would have if
a firecracker went off. And when the second shot was fired, it sounded
high. The sound of the second one seemed to me like it was coming from
up high, and I looked up at the building and I saw nothing in the
windows. In fact, I couldn't even see any windows at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER. In the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; because I was standing too close, was the reason.
And I looked back again at the crowd, and the third shot was fired. And
I looked up again, and I decided it had to be on top of that building.
To me, it is the only place the sound could be coming from.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do when you concluded that the shots were
coming from that building?
Mr. BARNETT. I ran to the back of the building.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ran down Houston Street?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a door in the back of the Texas School Book
Depository. Does it face on Houston or around the corner?
Mr. BARNETT. It is around the corner from Houston Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you go in the building?
Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I didn't get close to it, because I was watching
for a fire escape. If the man was on top, he would have to come down,
and I was looking for a fire escape, and I didn't pay much attention to
the door.
I was still watching the top of the building, and so far as I could
see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down.
Mr. LIEBELER. Since you surmised that the shots had come from the
building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. You
thought they had been fired from the top of the building?
Mr. BARNETT. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you ran around here on Houston Street immediately to
the east of the Texas School Book Depository Building and watched the
fire escape?
Mr. BARNETT. I went 20 foot past the building still on Houston, looking
up. I could see the whole back of the building and also the east side
of the building.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there,
or any movement on top of the building?
Mr. BARNETT. Not a thing.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you went around behind the building?
Mr. BARNETT. I looked behind the building and I saw officers searching
the railroad cars. I looked around in front towards the front of the
building and I saw officers going west.
Mr. LIEBELER. Going west down that little street there in front of the
School Book Depository Building?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes; but there was no sign they were going into the
building or watching the building, so I decided I was the only one
watching the building. So since this was the only fire escape and there
was officers down here watching this back door, I returned back around
to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape.
Then I decided maybe I had been wrong, so I saw the officers down here
searching.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean the officers went on down toward No. 5 on our
Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. BARNETT. When I got to the front, some of the officers were coming
back toward me, started back toward me.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were still back near the intersection of Elm and
Houston?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; I was back where No. 8 is then. That was
probably 2-1/2 minutes after the last shot was fired. About that time,
my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of Houston Street and
asked me to get the name of that building. I broke and ran to the front
and got the name of it. There were people going in and out at that
time. I ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a
construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection
up to me and said, "I was standing over there and saw the man in the
window with the rifle." He and I and the sergeant all three broke and
ran for the door. I kept the man there with me. The sergeant ran to the
back to make sure it was covered. I kept the man there until they took
him across the street to the courthouse. I was there until 3 o'clock,
at the door there with one of the other officers, J. D. Smith.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't actually go into the building at the time?
Mr. BARNETT. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long do you think it was from the time the last shot
was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from
going in and out?
Mr. BARNETT. It was around 2-1/2 minutes. Maybe between 2-1/2 or 3
minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. From the time the last shot was fired until the time you
were standing at that front door?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you let anybody out of the building after you got
there?
Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; until they were authorized.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who was in a position to authorize people to come in and
out?
Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, for sometime no one left except city,
county, and Federal officers, and then after the people in the building
were took into the small room there and questioned, they were brought
to the door by a lieutenant, which I don't remember his name, but that
was sometime after, and he brought them to the door and told us to let
them out.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it was possible that people could have left the
building between the time the last shot was fired and the time you and
Officer Smith stationed yourselves there?
Mr. BARNETT. When I went to the door to get the name of the building,
there were people going in and out then.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think it was as quickly as 2-1/2 minutes from the
time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door?
Do you think it was that quick?
Mr. BARNETT. I believe it was 2-1/2 minutes probably from the time I
ran from the back to the front. That was probably 2-1/2 minutes. Then
it took me 20 or 30 more seconds before I got to the front there.
Mr. LIEBELER. So your recollection is that it was fairly short order
that you got to the front door?
Mr. BARNETT. Three minutes at the most.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now who was the one sergeant who instructed you to post
yourself there at the door, or was it somebody else?
Mr. BARNETT. Sergeant Howard.
Mr. LIEBELER. You remained there at the door for how long?
Mr. BARNETT. Until 3 o'clock. Close to 11:30 to 3--close to 12:30 to 3.
Mr. LIEBELER. At which time you were relieved from duty?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; from that position I had to go back to my
regular assignment at Commerce and Akard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you notice Oswald around that area at anytime?
Mr. BARNETT. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Later on you saw his picture in the paper and, of course,
on television?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You had no recollection of seeing him in the area at all?
Mr. BARNETT. None whatsoever. There were hundreds of people in that
intersection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever talked to any other officer in the
department that remembers seeing him in the area at all?
Mr. BARNETT. No; I haven't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you heard of anybody that saw him there at the time?
Mr. BARNETT. Well, of course, I heard other officers that went up in
the building and talked to him.
Mr. LIEBELER. Officer Baker was one?
Mr. BARNETT. I haven't talked to the officer.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were pretty sure fairly quickly that the shots had
come from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was no notion in your mind that they could have
come from these railroad tracks down here around the triple underpass?
Mr. BARNETT. To me, it is impossible.
Mr. LIEBELER. From the sound of the shots?
Mr. BARNETT. The sounds were high, and if it was down here, it wouldn't
echo. It would be a low sound. For a shot to echo, it has to be high up.
Mr. LIEBELER. You mean to hang?
Mr. BARNETT. To hang like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now there were altogether three policemen assigned to the
corner of Elm and Houston; is that right?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other men assigned down the length of Elm
Street here, that you know?
Mr. BARNETT. Not that I know of. There were no men stationed
permanently there.
Mr. LIEBELER. The responsibility of control in that area would have
been the job of the motorcycle riders and the Secret Service men?
Mr. BARNETT. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are there any general orders that are issued to police
officers in regard to the scanning of windows when motorcades go by and
that sort of thing?
Mr. BARNETT. Well, in our training, we are told to scan windows, among
lots of things. Look on top of buildings, windows, cars, but, of
course, these things you are taught from the beginning. You don't have
to be reminded of it every day. That is what you are taught to do, and
it would take too long to remind us of everything they are supposed to
do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Every time you went out on an assignment?
Mr. BARNETT. Yes, sir; it would be impossible. That is why you are
trained for a job.
Mr. LIEBELER. Can you think of anything else that you saw or heard on
that day that you haven't told us about now, that you think we would be
interested in?
Mr. BARNETT. No, sir; I believe that is all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Thank you very much, officer, for coming in. We
appreciate your cooperation.
Mr. BARNETT. You are welcome.