The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SMITH. I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I
am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your
testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by
Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution
of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to
have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of
your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you
this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to
go ahead without an attorney, is that correct?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you state your full name for the record?
Mr. SMITH. Joe Marshall Smith.
Mr. LIEBELER. What is your address?
Mr. SMITH. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite.
Mr. LIEBELER. When were you born?
Mr. SMITH. May 1, 1932.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where?
Mr. SMITH. Kleburg, Tex.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you outline briefly for us your educational
background?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the
second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary
school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school
in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy.
Mr. LIEBELER. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas
Police Department?
Mr. SMITH. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. SMITH. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you have been working basically as a
uniformed officer, patrolman?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment,
or just what has been the nature of your work?
Mr. SMITH. Well, I was in radio patrol 3-1/2 years. Then I went to
traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently.
Mr. LIEBELER. I understand that you were assigned to work in the
vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct?
Mr. SMITH. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and
what you were told.
Mr. SMITH. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November
22, we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions
that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came
through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the
lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all
I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at
the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in
the office?
Mr. SMITH. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were
there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence
at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken
down?
Mr. SMITH. There were some broken down instructions that some of the
men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that
was my instructions.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or
delivered orally?
Mr. SMITH. Delivered orally.
Mr. LIEBELER. In other words, the captain or someone working with the
captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places
and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that
correct?
Mr. SMITH. That's correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. Men from the department were assigned all along the
motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct?
Mr. SMITH. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. And other men were given instructions similar to or the
same as the ones that you were given?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the
motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage
in general crowd control activities?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any instructions given to you men about
scanning buildings?
Mr. SMITH. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing
to do. I mean, just police the area. But I don't remember any specific
instructions on that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what
did you do?
Mr. SMITH. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and
it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At
approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had
an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main
and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I
stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent
to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other officers there in connection with
this fellow that had the epileptic fit?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember his name?
Mr. SMITH. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of
it before this even.
Mr. LIEBELER. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a
motorcycle or had a car?
Mr. SMITH. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think
he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man
when I arrived at the scene.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called
and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and
Houston Streets?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?
Mr. SMITH. Three of us.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who were the other two men?
Mr. SMITH. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his
initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER. How did you station yourself when you got there?
Mr. SMITH. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the
hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes
until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in
the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic
up.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from
that you held up?
Mr. SMITH. It was heading west on Elm.
Mr. LIEBELER. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into
the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and
held up the traffic to Elm Street; is that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston
Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm
Street?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. From that position, could you have observed the windows
on the side of the Texas School Book Depository Building room which
the shots were fired?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see
them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must
admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm
Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston
Street?
Mr. SMITH. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the
Texas School Book Depository Building at all?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you did not scan the building?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as
far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that
connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that
particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were
told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made.
Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is
marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School
Book Depository Building in there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; it should be right there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture,
and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off
opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book
Depository Building, and you were standing to the east?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Of Houston?
Mr. SMITH. Right along in this area.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right
at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back
in the vicinity of the automobile?
Mr. SMITH. Just about the middle of Elm Street here.
Mr. LIEBELER. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of
approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went
by. Is that approximately correct?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple
underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book
Depository Building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the
immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a
building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the
School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is?
Mr. SMITH. I know, but I can't remember now.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of
that building?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that
building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the
building to your left.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have,
because I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I
know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything
unusual.
Mr. LIEBELER. What about the building across Elm Street on your right?
That is the county building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. There are a series of windows in that building facing
the triple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point
where you were standing?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or
closed.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a
good vantage point from which to observe these windows?
Mr. SMITH. I mean on Houston Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. That is what I mean.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the
building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets
at all from where you were standing?
Mr. SMITH. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. If you could have seen, it would have been with great
difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and
you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct?
Mr. SMITH. Correct.
Mr. LIEBELER. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by,
tell us what happened at that point.
Mr. SMITH. I heard the shots.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to
watch the President as the motorcade went by?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to
make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also
to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the
shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point.
Mr. LIEBELER. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr. SMITH. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the
shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea,
because it was such a ricochet.
Mr. LIEBELER. An echo effect?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; and this woman came up to me and she was just
in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the
bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr. LIEBELER. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the
concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street
that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is
that right?
Mr. SMITH. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in
the parking lot.
Mr. LIEBELER. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back
from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the
parking lot and looked around?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars
and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was
some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when
I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the
shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought,
this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back.
Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you accost this man?
Mr. SMITH. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he
showed me who he was.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember who it was?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't--because then we started checking the cars.
In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I
started over here in this particular section.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the
triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came
from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But
it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Down around the--let's put a No. 5 there at the corner
here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward
the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on
the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book
Depository Building.
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have
come from up in that area?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of
it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the
shots in the area.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large
buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?
Mr. SMITH. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the
railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check
there.
Mr. LIEBELER. You didn't have any occasion to look up there before you
heard the shots?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the
bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School
Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and
then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to
look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see anybody up there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were there any other people up there, that you can
remember?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; none that I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you remember that there were two police officers up
there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area
down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main
railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find
anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you remain down in that area?
Mr. SMITH. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER. During that time, you continued searching through
automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back
there; is that right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. What did you do after you had searched this area?
Mr. SMITH. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy
sheriff--I don't know his name--he was in civilian clothes--he said
they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all
the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the
front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I
and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or
out until he was passed by the chief.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School
Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did
thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other
officers?
Mr. SMITH. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into
them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there.
Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around
there, and I went back to the building.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that
building, do you remember?
Mr. SMITH. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.
Mr. LIEBELER. Sergeant Howard?
Mr. SMITH. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.
Mr. LIEBELER. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those
two men?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir. Wait--let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was
Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let
anyone in or out of that building; that's right--Deputy Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?
Mr. SMITH. I started back up here to the building, and we were just
about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.
Mr. LIEBELER. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door
and not let anyone in or out?
Mr. SMITH. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know approximately what time that was?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after 1 o'clock.
I don't remember; no.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front
door?
Mr. SMITH. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time go into the building?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the
back door?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is
where you stayed?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?
Mr. SMITH. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.
Mr. LIEBELER. The firemen came into the building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get
some--what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there
for now.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department
that went into the building?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did they come back to the front door?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service
agents around?
Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the
Dallas office of the Secret Service?
Mr. SMITH. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember seeing him around that day?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out
of the building, or in the area at all?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there anything that happened while you were standing
there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of
significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked
you about?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only
let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have
any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI
agents; were there some of those?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.
Mr. LIEBELER. You let them go in?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.
Mr. LIEBELER. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?
Mr. SMITH. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know--I
don't recall who the officer was.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you
can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved?
Mr. SMITH. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had
set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee
and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there
that evening.
Mr. LIEBELER. You were relieved from your duty post?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And went on about your own personal affairs?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have
anything to do with the investigation of the assassination after that?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know Officer Tippit?
Mr. SMITH. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I
saw him.
Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture?
Mr. SMITH. It was after I left my post.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you left your post?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the
bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall
their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre
that they thought might have been the one.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you heard the shots and went from Point 4 on
Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area
here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the
buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; I was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes
and checking the cars.
Mr. LIEBELER. So you never saw anything in any of those windows at all?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three
streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under
the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to the
intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not?
Mr. SMITH. Yes; headed west on Main.
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then
turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the
assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from
going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering
now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway?
Mr. SMITH. I don't know, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and
gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass,
there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is
there not?
Mr. SMITH. What do you mean?
Mr. LIEBELER. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks
here.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the
three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?
Mr. SMITH. It is back off.
Mr. LIEBELER. It is not shown on the picture?
Mr. SMITH. No, sir; it is back off here.
Mr. LIEBELER. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the
trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and
crossed over Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under
the triple underpass?
Mr. SMITH. They merge.
Mr. LIEBELER. They all merge together down there?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the
motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to
the Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart?
Mr. SMITH. As far as I know, there is no reason.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you
stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that
you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main
Street to go onto Stemmons Freeway?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions about the
situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have
seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about that you think
the Commission should know.
Mr. SMITH. Sir, I just can't think of anything else.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I
appreciate your cooperation.
Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir; thank you.