Mr. LIEBELER. I ask you to read the transcript and I will make
arrangements--I hadn't thought you would be here until 1 o'clock this
afternoon, so I don't have a tape recorder here, but I think I can have
the Secret Service bring one over. Would you like to hear the tape, so
you can tell us whether or not that is your voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; sure.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me make arrangements then to have the Secret Service
bring the tape recorder on over and we will see if it is your voice.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I am going to tell you this, now, there was someone--let
me tell you this--there was someone one day--this was all to me--I
was scared, and I was, you know, frightened, and one day--now, this
brings me back--the memories [referring to the transcript heretofore
mentioned]. One day on my job there was someone that called, but he
told me he was from the city.
Mr. LIEBELER. From here in Dallas?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That's right; the city hall down here, and this man told
me he was--now, I can tell you what he told me he was--he said he was
Captain Fritz--over this telephone--Capt. Will Fritz and I know you are
familiar with him, maybe. Now, he said he was Captain Fritz with the
police department of the city of Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, this transcript indicates that someone called a
number, a telephone number--do you remember the telephone number at
your office where you worked; were you working?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I was working down here on Main Street.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know what the telephone down there is?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I have really forgotten it, but it was over this
office phone. It's a Riverside 8 number.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is there such a number as Matthew 7-6797?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Or is there such a number as MA 7-6797, is there such a
number as that that you know of?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. This transcript here indicates that some gentleman called
this number here, Matthew 7-6797.
Mrs. MARKHAM. My number at home is Whitehall and this number that I
worked at was Riverside 8.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I think what we should do is have the Secret
Service bring a tape recorder here, because I want you to listen to
this conversation, and if it is not your voice, we certainly want to
know that.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Sure, and this man--what this man told me--he told me he
was from the Dallas Police Department and he said it was concerning the
Oswalds and they had to get a little more information from me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, let me call the Secret Service.
Mrs. MARKHAM. And listen, that was the only call that I know of. You
see, I kept racking my brain thinking back, you know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Why don't we suspend momentarily and as soon as the
Secret Service man brings the tape recorder over here, which should be
within a short time, a half an hour, we will play the tape.
Mrs. MARKHAM. All right.
(At this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed at 11:40 a.m.,
as follows:)
Mr. LIEBELER. This is Mr. John Joe Howlett with the Secret Service and
he has brought over the tape recorder and has put the tape on it and we
will continue with your deposition, Mrs. Markham. Mr. Howlett, with the
U.S. Secret Service, will operate the tape recorder and I will ask you,
Mrs. Markham, to listen to this conversation and tell us whether or not
this is an accurate reflection of a conversation that you had over the
telephone some time ago?
The COURT REPORTER. How much of this tape recording do you want on the
record here?
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't want any of this on the record now; however,
I will give you, Mrs. Markham, a transcript of this telephone
conversation to review and follow along, if you will. This memorandum
consists of 29 pages appearing on the letterhead of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation, dated July 16, 1964, and I want you to see if that is
not in fact a transcript, a typed copy of what is on this tape.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I'll watch this.
(At this point Mr. Howlett proceeded to play the tape recording of the
telephone conversation heretofore referred to and when the witness,
Mrs. Markham, began to indicate reactions to the recorded conversation,
the reporter resumed recording same as hereinafter shown and the record
here begins with the question and answer at the time Mrs. Markham began
indicating her reactions.)
"Mr. LANE. I wonder if you would be good enough to tell me--I have your
affidavit which you gave the police on that date.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. And I have read that, of course, and I wonder if you would
be good enough to talk to me?"
Mr. LIEBELER. You are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape
recorder, Mrs. Markham.
John Joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. What do you mean to
indicate by that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I never talked to that man.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that not your voice on the tape?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I can't tell about my voice, but that man--I never talked
to no woman or no man like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, we will play the recording some more, and are you
following it along, Mrs. Markham?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I am right here.
Mr. LIEBELER. And does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and
exact transcript of the recording?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--whoever that man is--I don't know, but it
says, Mark Lane. No, sir--I'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and
those words that he's saying--that's nothing like the telephone call I
got--nothing.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let's continue with the recording and see if you
recognize your voice here on the tape.
"Mr. LANE. Tell me the description of the man whom you saw.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. This is an office business phone and I just can't tell
you that." I don't have the time to.
"Mr. LANE. Well, could you just give me one moment and tell me--I read
where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and
had bushy hair.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, no; I did not say that.
"Mr. LANE. You did not say that?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Would you say that he was stocky?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He was short.
"Mr. LANE. He was short?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
"Mr. LANE. And was he a little on the heavy side?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Not too heavy.
"Mr. LANE. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was--no--he didn't look too heavy.
"Mr. LANE. He wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a rather
bushy kind of hair?"
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; that's my voice.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; just a little bit bushy.
"Mr. LANE. It was a little bit bushy?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
"Mr. LANE. Yes. Was there anybody else around when you saw this happen?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; I didn't see anyone.
"Mr. LANE. There was no one else there. Did you ever have a chance to
see Mr. Oswald when he was alive, I mean after he was arrested, did
they bring you down to look at him?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw him on the lineup.
"Mr. LANE. Yes. Did he look anything like the man who shot Oswald?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I identified him.
"Mr. LANE. You identified him as the man who did shoot him. Did anyone
point him out to you at that time as the man?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. In the lineup?
"Mr. LANE. Yes.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; they did not.
"Mr. LANE. Did they tell you who it might be?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. They didn't tell me one thing.
"Mr. LANE. No. Do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot
Officer Tippit?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. How was he dressed?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He had on a light gray looking jacket.
"Mr. LANE. Yes.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Kind of dark trousers.
"Mr. LANE. Dark trousers?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Uh-huh.
"Mr. LANE. And did you see what color shirt?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I could not.
"Mr. LANE. The jacket was open or closed?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit--the neck was
closed--pretty close too.
"Mr. LANE. Well, as I said, I have read your affidavit and it indicates
the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned
on it and placed his arms up against the car.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Up in the window.
"Mr. LANE. In the window?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the police officer call him over, did you?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen the police car stop--I seen it all.
"Mr. LANE. I beg your pardon?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop.
"Mr. LANE. You heard the police car stop?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I seen it.
"Mr. LANE. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman, whoever
it was, walked over to the car?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car.
"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down the window.
"Mr. LANE. He did what?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down his window.
"Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh.
"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been.
"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down,
because, you see, he leaned over in the window.
"Mr. LANE. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station
when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I told them that at the scene of the murder.
"Mr. LANE. You told the officers the description?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy
side and had slightly bushy hair?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that.
"Mr. LANE. They never asked you his description?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; they asked what he was wearing.
"Mr. LANE. Just what he was wearing?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. But they never asked you how he was built or anything like
that?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Well, you went to the police station where they took your
affidavit, right?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes."
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you are shaking your head at this point.
Miss Reporter, you are taking the transcript down.
The REPORTER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do
you mean by that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. This man--I have never talked with. This lady was never
on the telephone. This man that called me like I told you, he told me
he was from the city hall, the police department, the police department
of the city hall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, do you remember having this conversation with
somebody?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I do, but he told me he was from the police
department of city hall and he had to get some information, a little
more information from me. That was my boss that told me--the one that
said, "Wait a minute," that was my boss, Mr. Sam Gambolus.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you received this call at the place where you work?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember specifically that when the telephone
calls started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the
police department?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; yes, sir; right. Because--you see--I had got a
call from a man, but it was--I found out later, because the lady had
called me back, it was from Mr. Tippit's sister, and I had told them
that I couldn't talk, you know, I was busy on my job and this man told
me that he was from the police department of the city hall and he had
to get a little more information and it wouldn't take much of my time,
and so I got permission from this boss, Mr. Gambolus, to talk with this
man. Now, he told me that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, did he tell you he was from the police department?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, on this tape recording right here, this man is
asking you what the police did.
Mrs. MARKHAM. I know it.
Mr. LIEBELER. And he said they--the police took you and took your
affidavit.
Mrs. MARKHAM. That man--I have never talked to that man. I talked to a
man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the
city hall.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked
to?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; it is not.
Mr. LIEBELER. This is not the same voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on
this tape recording is your voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I never heard that.
Mr. LIEBELER. You never heard the man's voice before?
Mrs. MARKHAM. And I never heard this lady's voice before--this is the
first time.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's
voice on the tape now is your voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city
police.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did it occur to you as you were talking to him--when he
said, for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you
tell the officers--you told this person you were talking to on this
tape that you saw the police car stop and that this man walked over
to the car and that the officer had rolled the window down and this
man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that you had seen the
officer roll the window down.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Man, I have never heard such a thing as this.
Mr. LIEBELER. At the bottom of page 6 he says, "I see. Now, did you
tell the officers at the police station, when they questioned you, the
description of the man who shot Tippit?"
You couldn't have thought he was from the police department if he was
asking you what you were telling the police before--do you agree with
me?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; but he told me he was from the police department and
he had to get some information from me and I wanted to get back to my
work.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in
this conversation here, the man--when he started out, he told you that
he was from the police department; is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have never talked to this man. Just
like if I get a telephone call I say, "You know where I am at, come
down to see me." He told me he was from the police department and this
lady never talked to me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady is that?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On this tape.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which lady on the tape?
Mrs. MARKHAM. It was a woman talking.
Mr. LIEBELER. The lady's voice that was talking on the tape here?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I thought that was your voice?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Not at the first there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Not at the first--you mean the telephone operator, the
one that was the telephone operator? The tape here indicates that the
long-distance telephone operator or some telephone operator called you
to the telephone and a man answered the telephone.
Mrs. MARKHAM. No; my boss called me to the telephone.
Mr. LIEBELER. So, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the
telephone and he told you that he was from the police department?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And then you engaged in this telephone conversation?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; he certainly did.
Mr. LIEBELER. So that, in fact, your testimony is that you had never
had anybody introduce themselves to you as Mark Lane?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't talked to him over the telephone?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't have any doubt, however, that you did engage in
this particular conversation, except that you are having trouble at the
beginning and end of it because you said that the man told you that he
was from the police department when he called?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he certainly did. I know he did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot Officer
Tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair?