The testimony of Earle Cabell was taken at 9 a.m., on July 13, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President's Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney
general of Texas, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Hon. Earle Cabell, mayor of the
city of Dallas.
Mr. CABELL. Former mayor.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that right?
Mr. CABELL. I resigned in February.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the
advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Cabell, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Mr. Cabell, you appeared today by virtue of a letter which I
understand was received by you on either July 8 or 9, written by Mr.
J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President's Commission; is that
correct?
Mr. CABELL. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CABELL. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name for the record?
Mr. CABELL. My name is Earle Cabell.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your residence?
Mr. CABELL. My place of residence is 5338 Drane Drive, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, I understand that you were formerly the mayor
of Dallas, but you resigned about 2 or 3 months ago?
Mr. CABELL. I was installed as mayor of Dallas May 1, 1961, for a
2-year term. Was reinstalled May 1, 1963, upon reelection. Resigned
that office on February 3, 1964, to become a candidate for the House of
Representatives of the United States.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to your becoming mayor, what occupation did you have?
I simply want to get some background for the record.
Mr. CABELL. For the past 30-odd years I have been engaged in dairy
products and food retailing in the city of Dallas and surrounding areas.
Mr. HUBERT. You still have that business?
Mr. CABELL. No; I am not connected with that business officially any
longer. I retain my office at the former headquarters of that company,
which is 4017 Commerce Street. I am on a retainer with the company in
an advisory capacity.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Cabell, we are interested in a number of matters,
but I think we can cover much of the ground by asking you to comment
upon an interview of you by FBI Agents Warren Debrueys and George
Carlson on December 12, 1963, which I have marked for identification
as follows: On the first page in the right-hand margin I have marked
"Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Honorable
Earle Cabell." I have signed my name under that and on each of these
succeeding three pages I have marked my initials in the right-hand
lower corner.
Exhibit No. 1 consists therefore of 4 pages. Mr. Cabell, I think you
have had an opportunity to read this Exhibit No. 1; is that right?
Mr. CABELL. I have read it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if the exhibit, which is, as I have said, a
report of an interview of you by the FBI agents named, is an accurate
and fair statement of the conference or interview had between you?
Mr. CABELL. It is entirely so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any corrections or additions?
Mr. CABELL. I find no corrections or additions to make to that
statement.
Mr. HUBERT. For the record, I would like you to state briefly just
what was the chain of command of governmental authority in the city of
Dallas, starting with you, I take it, as the top, on down at least to
the police department.
Mr. CABELL. Under the charter of the city of Dallas, the city council
is composed of councilmen and the mayor, the mayor having the status
of a councilman, but also being the presiding officer elected by the
people at large as the mayor. He is the presiding officer and the
spokesman for the council. The council does not have administrative
responsibilities nor authority. The council is a legislative and
policymaking body who appoint the city manager, among certain other
city officials or department heads.
The city manager in turn has the discretion of appointing those
department heads under his direct jurisdiction, including the
appointment of the chief of police. The council, by ordinance, is
not authorized to, and in fact is prohibited from taking direct
administrative action through or over any of the department heads
appointed by and responsible to the city manager.
Mr. HUBERT. How many members compose the council, sir?
Mr. CABELL. Eight members, in addition to the Mayor.
Mr. HUBERT. They are elected?
Mr. CABELL. They are all elected by the citizens of Dallas at large.
That is, they are all voted upon.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager, as I understand it, is appointed by
the council or by the mayor?
Mr. CABELL. No; the city manager is appointed by the council, by
council action.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the city manager on November 22 through 24, 1963, was
Mr. Crull?
Mr. CABELL. Elgin E. Crull.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, for the record, you were then Mayor?
Mr. CABELL. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I think it might be well also for the record if we have the
names of the people that composed the council at that time.
Mr. CABELL. The council at that time was composed of Mr. Carie Welch.
He was also mayor pro tem. Mr. William Roberts, Mrs. Tracy Rutherford,
Mr. Joe Moody, Mr. Joe Golman, Mrs. Elizabeth Blessing, Mr. George
Underwood, Jr., Mr. R. B. Carpenter.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that Mr. Crull had been serving as city
manager for quite some time?
Mr. CABELL. Something over 10 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe briefly for us the relationship between
the mayor and the council and the city manager?
Mr. CABELL. Well, it is the relationship of the general manager of
a corporate entity and his board of directors, with most day-to-day
contact being made through the mayor as the presiding officer of that
board.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the city manager really has the detailed
administration of city affairs?
Mr. CABELL. He is entirely responsible for the administrative functions
of the city government.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the mayor, then, is responsible for policies with the
council; is that correct?
Mr. CABELL. As the presiding officer, the mayor has only one vote on
the action of the council, as any other councilman, but by virtue of
being the presiding officer and the spokesman of the council, then on
day-to-day routine matters, the contact of the city manager is through
the mayor.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the council make any other appointments than the
appointment of the city manager?
Mr. CABELL. Yes; the direct appointees of the council are the city
attorney, the city secretary, the supervisor of public utilities, and
the city auditor, with the city auditor being nominated by the Dallas
Clearing House Association.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand then that the chief of police is appointed by
the city manager completely?
Mr. CABELL. That is correct; and is responsible only to the city
manager.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the city council or mayor confirm the appointees of
the city manager? What authority do they have?
Mr. CABELL. They confirm by virtue of approval of the budget wherein
their salaries are stipulated and they are named.
Mr. HUBERT. But it is not an appointment such as with Federal officials
where the President appoints and the city confirms?
Mr. CABELL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I want to ask you to state what you observed concerning
the actual shooting of the President, and perhaps the best way to start
is to tell us what position you were in in the Presidential parade.
Mr. CABELL. We were separated from the President's car by the car in
which the Vice President and Senator Yarborough were riding, and by
a station wagon holding, I think, certain members of the press and
possibly some Secret Service, and I believe one other car of Secret
Service so there were either two or three intervening cars between our
place in the motorcade and the Presidential car.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was in your car other than the driver?
Mr. CABELL. Mrs. Cabell and Congressman Ray Roberts from McKinney,
Tex., Congressman from the Fourth District, and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Just the three of you?
Mr. CABELL. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who the driver was?
Mr. CABELL. I do not remember his name. He was a member of the
Department of Public Safety of the State of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you observe anything at all relative to the
shooting of the President?
Mr. CABELL. Well, we were just rounding the corner of Market and Elm,
making the left turn, when the first shot rang out.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe what you saw or heard, please, sir?
Mr. CABELL. I heard the shot. Mrs. Cabell said, "Oh a gun" or "a shot",
and I was about to deny and say "Oh it must have been a firecracker"
when the second and the third shots rang out. There was a longer
pause between the first and second shots than there was between the
second and third shots. They were in rather rapid succession. There
was no mistaking in my mind after that, that they were shots from a
high-powered rifle.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you familiar with rifles so that your statement that it
was your opinion it came from a high-powered rifle was that of a person
who knows something about it?
Mr. CABELL. I have done a great deal of hunting and also used military
shoulder guns, as well as hunting rifles.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the armed services during the war?
Mr. CABELL. No; I was not, but there was no question in my mind as to
their being from a high-powered rifle and coming from the direction of
the building known as the School Book Depository.
Mr. HUBERT. That you judged, I suppose, by the direction from which you
thought the sound came?
Mr. CABELL. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you estimate the number of seconds, say, between the
first and second shots, as related to the number of seconds between the
second and third shots? Perhaps doing it on the basis of a ratio?
Mr. CABELL. Well, I would put it this way. That approximately 10
seconds, elapsed between the first and second shots, with not more than
5 seconds having elapsed until the third one.
Mr. HUBERT. Two to one ratio?
Mr. CABELL. Approximately that. And again I say that, as you mentioned,
as a matter of being relative. I couldn't tell you the exact seconds
because they were not counted.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when you became conscious that these were shots and
that they seemed to be coming from the building known as the Texas
School Book Depository Building, did you look toward that building?
Mr. CABELL. My back was turned to it at the time, because I was riding
in the front seat and was conversing with Mrs. Cabell and Mr. Roberts.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were in the back? And you were next to the driver?
Mr. CABELL. I was sitting in the front seat with the driver. This was a
convertible in which we were riding with the top down.
Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the shots seemed to you to come from
behind?
Mr. CABELL. From behind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you turn in the direction of the shots?
Mr. CABELL. I turned then, rather looking down toward the Presidential
car, and then I saw the people scattering and some throwing themselves
on the ground. One man threw himself over a child that was sitting in
the grass there. I did not observe anything in connection with the
building itself.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see anybody in any of the windows?
Mr. CABELL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you mentioned that Mrs. Cabell made a remark
to you, "Oh, that is a shot." I take it from what you have said, that
remark was made immediately after the first shot?
Mr. CABELL. Just immediately; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And before the second and third, is that right?
Mr. CABELL. And really before I could get my answer out--I think it was
motivated by wishful thinking as much as anything else, to deny or to
say possibly it wasn't--then the second and third shots rang out.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other spontaneous remarks made by anyone
else in the car?
Mr. CABELL. Well, in the discussion which followed, both Mr. Roberts
and myself said that it must have been from a gun similar to a .30-06.
Mr. HUBERT. By spontaneous, I meant those remarks made just
immediately, not the discussion thereafter, you see.
Mr. CABELL. I don't remember.
Mr. HUBERT. So you do not recall any remarks made by anyone else of a
spontaneous nature?
Mr. CABELL. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did you do after the shots were fired and the
Presidential car and the vice presidential car went on?
Mr. CABELL. Then we just followed and told the driver to follow them.