The testimony of Kenneth P. O'Donnell was taken at 12:05 p.m., on May
18, 1964, at the White House Office, Washington, D.C., by Messrs.
Norman Redlich and Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you rise, please? Do you solemnly swear that the
testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the
President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. O'Donnell, the purpose of our asking you to testify
today is to obtain whatever knowledge you have about the origin of the
trip to Texas by President Kennedy, the events during the trip, and
the trip back to Washington, D.C., on November 22. With that general
statement of purpose, I will ask you if you have any objection to
giving a deposition at this time?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I do not.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Kenneth P. O'Donnell.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your duties on November 22, 1963?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I was special assistant to the President. I was in
charge of his appointments and any itineraries that he might have.
Mr. SPECTER. How long had you served in that capacity?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I served as special assistant to the President since the
inauguration, January 20, 1961, with the same duties.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you a party to the original conversations and
decision for President Kennedy to make a trip to Texas in November of
1963?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I was.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline the origin of that trip to Texas, please?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The origin of the trip I would think came from a
conversation between the President, then Vice President Johnson,
and myself. It concerned President Kennedy's desire, and President
Johnson's desire that he come to Texas and spend some time there,
looking forward to the campaign of 1964, in which Texas would play a
very vital role in President Kennedy's view.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did that first conversation occur, Mr.
O'Donnell?
Mr. O'DONNELL. We had been discussing this for almost 6 or 7 months,
but the time had never seemed quite right, either in the Vice
President's mind or in Governor Connally's mind. Governor Connally
and the Vice President had discussed this. They arrived at a general
agreement that it be done some time in the latter part of the month of
November. I think this decision probably came in October, some time in
October.
Mr. SPECTER. When had President Kennedy been in Dallas prior to the
trip of November 1963?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The last time the President had been in Dallas was as a
candidate for the Presidency.
I correct myself. He had been to--visit Speaker Rayburn in the
hospital. I was not on that trip.
Mr. SPECTER. Then aside from the trip to see Speaker Rayburn, in the
hospital, had the President been in Dallas at all since the campaign of
1960?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He had not.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately when it was that President
Kennedy visited Speaker Rayburn in the hospital in Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know exactly. It would be just before he passed
away.
Mr. SPECTER. Does October 1961 sound about right to you?
Mr. O'DONNELL. It sounds about right.
Mr. SPECTER. And how many times had President Kennedy been to Texas
between the campaign of 1960 and November 1963, if you know?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he had been to the Speaker's funeral at Bonham. He
had been to Houston, to see the new space center, and also he spoke at
Rice Stadium. And he had been to El Paso, on a military inspection tour.
Mr. SPECTER. Are those, then, all the trips he made, to your knowledge?
Mr. O'DONNELL. That is all I can recollect at the moment.
Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, what was the purpose of the President's
trip to Texas in November of 1963?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he hadn't conducted any political activities in
Texas. There were great controversies existing. There was a party
problem in Texas that the President and the Vice President felt he
could be helpful, as both sides of the controversy were supporting
President Kennedy, and they felt he could be a bridge between these
two groups, and this would be helpful in the election of 1964. I think
that is the major reason for the trip.
Mr. SPECTER. Was President Kennedy motivated, to any extent at all, by
his interest in making himself as President available to the people
generally in every section of the country, including Texas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Very definitely. The President's views of his
responsibilities as President of the United States were that he meet
the people, that he go out to their homes and see them, and allow them
to see him, and discuss, if possible, the views of the world as he
sees it, the problems of the country as he sees them. And he felt that
leaving Washington for the President of the United States was most
necessary--not only for the people, but for the President himself, that
he expose himself to the actual basic problems that were disturbing
the American people. It helped him in his job here, he was able to
come back here with a fresh view of many things. I think he felt very
strongly that the President ought to get out of Washington, and go meet
the people on a regular basis.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he enjoy that exposure, strictly as a personal matter?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He enjoyed it very much. The President--liked people,
and he liked to mingle with people.
Mr. SPECTER. When were the specific dates of November 21 and November
22 finally set as being the precise times for the trip to Texas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I am not clear in my recollection of that. I would
think some time early in November. I know Thanksgiving was one of the
problems we had to work with. We decided that would be the best time to
go, in that general area, and we, in general, would keep a file--once
we agreed we were going to Texas--we would keep a file on all the
speaking engagements, all the invitations the President had received.
I would go to that file and select some that might look promising.
One of them that I recollect was an invitation from Congressman
Albert Thomas, or his committee, that was giving him an appreciation
dinner--not the Congressman himself. And the President was very fond
of Congressman Thomas, he was most helpful to him, and I knew he would
want to go, if this was at all possible. I would think that probably
had more to do with setting the actual definite dates of the 21st and
22d.
Mr. SPECTER. When, if you recall, was the Secret Service notified of
the forthcoming trip to Texas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think they would be notified around the first
week in November. The general desire is that they have the specific
information at least on the places that he might go 3 weeks prior to
the trip.
Mr. SPECTER. And who among the members of the Presidential staff would
be charged with the responsibility for coordinating the trip with the
Secret Service?
Mr. O'DONNELL. That would be my responsibility. The manner in which
we would set it up would be that I would notify the head here, who is
Gerry Behn, and Gerry Behn would ask me when we were sending people
down, so that his people and our people could go down at the same time.
And I recollect that Jerry Bruno was one of them.
The first step would be to confer with the Governor, go over the
general proposals that the Governor would make, and then bring it back
to me. And I would go over it with the Governor and the Vice President
and the President.
Mr. SPECTER. What planning was undertaken with respect to the
determination of the motorcade route through Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think once we arrived--we chose the four cities
we were going into. And then the advance men and the Secret Service
went out. Then we would work backwards from where we had to be at
what time, and what things we had agreed we would do there. And the
original--Dallas, as I recollect, was going to be an evening affair.
The Governor thought the evening affair should be in Austin, and that
we should hit Dallas around noontime.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say the evening affair, what are you referring to
specifically there?
Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a political dinner which was to be conducted
at Austin that evening, at the end of which the President was going
with the Vice President to the ranch. This was a political fundraising
dinner.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any conversation given at all to
omitting a motorcade through Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. None.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were the considerations behind the decision on
having a motorcade through Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we had a motorcade wherever we went. Particularly
when we went to a large city, the purpose of going there was to give
the President as much exposure to the people of Dallas and vice versa,
the people of Dallas to the President, as possible.
The speaking engagement was a luncheon which was rather limited. And
the President would not want to leave Dallas feeling that the only ones
that were able to see him were a rather select group. So it would be
automatic, and we would not even proceed with instructions, that the
advance man and the Secret Service would, within the time allotted to
them--would bring the President into Dallas, through an area which
exposes him to the greatest number of people.
Mr. SPECTER. When was a decision made, if you recall, as to the precise
route that the motorcade would follow through Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recall. I would think it would be perhaps a
week before the final decision was made. The President would not
involve himself in anything like this. Once we agreed on where he would
go, that was my responsibility to work it out. The normal course of
events--they would say to me, "Do you want a motorcade in Dallas?" I
would say, "Yes; this is how much time you have got." They would work
out a motorcade. The Secret Service would time the route. Once they had
worked out this point, they would come back to me and say, "We have
accomplished the purpose you want." The Secret Service would say it
takes so much time, the Governor would say "You have to be here at a
certain time." Once all those are put together, the route is laid out
and accepted.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall how long after the determination of the
motorcade route that that information was transmitted to the press in
Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't. I would think on the transmission to the press
that that would not come from here anyway. That would come from down
there. I would think the Governor's office would probably put that
out. We would under normal circumstances inform through Mr. Salinger's
office, I would inform him of the trip, and then I would give him a
schedule that is given to me by the Secret Service, which would give
the times, but no routes--times and locations, and would go along that
he would arrive at 12 o'clock, address such and such a group at 1
o'clock. So we would not normally be privy--they could be saying to me,
"We are going down 12th Street"--it would not mean anything to me. So I
would think that our advance man and the Governor's advance man would
make a decision on when they were going to announce the route.
I would think that was almost normal. You might say you wanted to do
it 4 days ahead of time in New York, and the local fellow would really
determine it--"Down here we do it this way."
Mr. SPECTER. Would the route be disclosed to the press as a matter of
normal procedure in general as soon as it was ascertained?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any factors peculiar to Dallas which delayed
the determination of the motorcade route?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The only factor that really did hold up a final decision
was we had not been able to finally agree on where he would end up and
where he would deliver the speech. There was a controversy between the
Governor, and between some of the local democratic figures, and between
our people, as to whether the place finally selected was the best place
for the President to give the address. The Governor felt very strongly
on it. And we finally acquiesced to his views. But I would think that
came rather late in the game, and it would have altered the route quite
dramatically.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us if there was any consideration at all
given to omitting Dallas as a stop on the trip in Texas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't think so; no. I would think that the President
would not have--once he had agreed to go to three or four other
cities, that he could not possibly go to Texas and avoid Dallas. It
would cause more controversy--and it would not accomplish for us what
really was the long-range purpose of the visit.
Mr. SPECTER. And the long-range purpose was what, sir?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Was to attempt to in some way bridge the gap between
the two political groups in Texas who were at odds, and to assist the
President and prepare for the 1964 campaign as best he could at this
period of time.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the President's reaction towards Dallas
generally, if you know, with respect to the current publicity about,
say, Ambassador Stevenson's reception there?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, he was not in anyway concerned about it. I think
that the President was a very charitable man. He felt that really the
picture of Dallas as painted--and as a reflection of their press in
many ways--was not the real picture of Dallas; that they were Americans
like everybody else, that there were good and bad, and the fact that 50
shouting people didn't portray the city of Dallas. He had been there
in the 1960 campaign when the Vice President had been spit upon, and
the President received one of the finest receptions he ever got. He
didn't carry the city. They opposed him. But they were not particularly
different than anybody else. And that wouldn't concern him, and I
think, very frankly, the more difficult it was the more he liked to go
there. But I think he generally felt that the loud noises emanating
from Dallas were a very small minority, and so reflected.
Mr. SPECTER. Had there been any discussion about limiting the trip to
Texas to a 1 day venture?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect any. I do know one of the original
thoughts was that he go to this dinner in Austin, which was a political
dinner. Whether there was any consideration in some other people's
minds that he just go in for the dinner and leave, I know he, number 1,
would not consider it.
Mr. SPECTER. Why not?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He would not consider it because he had a great aversion
to going into any place to a fundraising political dinner in which he
felt that the people that were there were not really representative
of the people, but were politically committed people, where it was a
business meeting. And he thought this reflected to some degree on the
office of the Presidency, that on his only visit to Texas, or any other
State in 3 years, that he came to raise money for a political party,
that he owed to the people to expose himself to them. So he he felt
it was a duty of the Presidency to expose himself to the public. So
he would not go to any place on a purely--but he certainly considered
there were some political problems in Texas--that would also be in his
judgment a bad political mistake. So I don't think there was ever any
question that he would go some place else.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you accompany the President on all phases of the trip
to Texas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I was with him when he left. The only time that I was
not with him was at Congressman Thomas' dinner. He went to the dinner.
We ate at the hotel and went directly to the airport.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you depart, then, from Washington, on that trip
to Texas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, we left that morning by helicopter from the lawn.
I think the records show it is 10:45. But the schedule was on time,
certainly arriving there, and, as I recollect, we were on time pretty
much the whole way as the schedule would reflect.
Mr. SPECTER. And from the helicopter at the White House lawn, where was
your first stop by helicopter?
Mr. O'DONNELL. We stopped and boarded _Air Force 1_ at Andrews Air
Force Base.
Mr. SPECTER. Would the time of 11 a.m., as reflected in the records, be
accurate as your point of departure, then, from Andrews Air Force Base?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I would think it would be.
Mr. SPECTER. And your first stop in Texas was what?
Mr. O'DONNELL. San Antonio.
Mr. SPECTER. Arrival time of 1:30 p.m.--would that be an accurate time
of arrival, within a few minutes, say, of when you actually set down in
San Antonio?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think that is right. As I say, we were on
schedule, and the schedule would indicate we were due to arrive at 1:30.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the activities at San Antonio, Tex?
Mr. O'DONNELL. We motorcaded through San Antonio and went to the
Aerospace Medical Center, where the President made a speech, and from
there to a second airport. We had moved _Air Force 1_ from one airfield
to another, on the other side of the city.
Mr. SPECTER. At the Aerospace Center, was there a dedication there of
some new facilities?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other public appearance, then, besides the
one you mentioned, in San Antonio?
Mr. O'DONNELL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. To where did you go from San Antonio?
Mr. O'DONNELL. We flew to Houston.
Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you arrive in Houston?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I would have to look at the record.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it late in the afternoon on November 21?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Late in the afternoon, I would think around 4 or 5
o'clock.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were the activities in Houston?
Mr. O'DONNELL. We drove from the airfield into the hotel. As I
recollect, there were very large crowds.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that a motorcade procession, also?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Motorcade; and particularly as we got in downtown
Houston, the crowds were very large, and very enthusiastic. Getting in
the hotel was somewhat of a chore.
Mr. SPECTER. What public appearances did the President then make in
Houston?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The President spoke at the appreciation dinner for
Congressman Thomas. The records will show the location. I did not
accompany him. And I went directly from the hotel to the airport, and
met him as he got aboard the plane.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately when did the Presidential party depart from
Houston?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would have to guess again. I would think around
10:30 or 11 o'clock. The alternative was staying overnight in Houston,
getting in early in the morning--or getting in to Fort Worth late at
night, and allowing the President a little more rest, and we selected
going to Fort Worth that night.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the public appearances made by the President,
then, in Fort Worth, Tex.?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He spoke at 8 o'clock that morning at a breakfast which
was given by the business community, as I remember, came back up to his
room, chatted for a few minutes, went back down. It had been raining.
The sun had just come out. He went out and spoke to a group assembled
in the parking lot and went back and departed for--came back upstairs,
we chatted for a few minutes again, and then came back down and
departed for Carswell.
Mr. SPECTER. And how did the President travel out of Fort Worth?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He left Fort Worth in an open car, traveled by car to
Carswell.
Mr. SPECTER. And from Carswell, what was his mode of travel?
Mr. O'DONNELL. _Air Force 1_ to Love Field, Dallas?
Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions on the arrival at Love
Field in Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The weather was clear, sunny, excellent weather.
Mr. SPECTER. What decision had been made as to whether to have an open
car in Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The decision had been made to have an open--if the
weather was good, he would ride in an open car.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall who made that decision?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would make that decision under normal
circumstances. But it was almost an automatic decision, that whenever
the weather was clear, he preferred to ride in an open car.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall at approximately what time the Presidential
party arrived at Love Field, Tex.--Love Field, Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think it would be around 11, 11:15. We were on
time. We always allowed a few minutes at the airport, because he always
shook hands with the crowd. So we left--my recollection is that we
departed from Love Field approximately according to the schedule.
Mr. SPECTER. What were President Kennedy's activities at Love Field?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He had no scheduled activities. It was a matter of
assembling the motorcade. He got off _Air Force 1_, and he went over to
the crowd that was gathered around the rail, shook hands, went up and
down.
Mr. SPECTER. What type of a crowd was it with respect to size?
Mr. O'DONNELL. It was a large crowd.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us how the motorcade was constituted with
respect to the general number of the cars and the way they were lined
up, if you recall, please?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I can't go more than--I got into the second car,
and I didn't really look behind me. There was some controversy as to
what Congressman sat in what car. We had a lot of Congressmen with us
and a lot of dignitaries, and there was a lot of juggling around, which
Mr. O'Brien was more involved with than I was, as to where Senator
Yarborough and the Vice President and the Congressman sat. But it was
a lengthy motorcade, more lengthy than normal. We always tried to keep
them down as much as possible. But because of the number of Congressmen
and the dignitaries involved.
Mr. SPECTER. How many cars were there ahead of yours?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I think there was a scout car, which was the lead,
the President's vehicle, and I was in the car right behind him, in the
Secret Service followup car.
Mr. SPECTER. Who else besides you was in that car?
Mr. O'DONNELL. David Powers was with me. All the rest were agents.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether anything unusual occurred on the
trip from Love Field down to the center of Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I thought it was normal--the crowds, going through
the suburbs, were, I would say, from medium to heavy for that trip.
I noted they were mostly white collar, mostly industrial places we
passed by which I would say were highly technical. Therefore, the crowd
reflected a middle to an upper class type. They were not unfriendly nor
terribly enthusiastic. They waved. But were reserved, I thought.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you seated in the car?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I was seated in the front jump seat--the jump seat.
Mr. SPECTER. On the left-hand side or the right-hand side?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Left-hand side.
Mr. SPECTER. And who sat on your immediate right?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Mr. Powers.
Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were there in front of you?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, there were the normal two or sometimes three in
the front seat. I would not be clear as to how many there were. I would
think there were about--just guessing--seven or eight agents in the
car. Some on the running board, some seated, depending on the speed of
the motorcade, or the activity.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there a front seat in the car, immediately ahead of
you?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And was that occupied by Secret Service agents?
Mr. O'DONNELL. It was.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about immediately to your rear? Was there a rear
seat?
Mr. O'DONNELL. There was a rear seat. There were agents in that--again
depending on the speed of the motorcade they were either on the running
board, or as it slows up and the crowds got larger the agents would get
on the running board. But as it moved along rather rapidly, as it did
on the way in, they were seated most of the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the President's automobile
made any stops en route from the airport into the downtown area?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't recollect, clearly. I would be surprised if it
did not. But I don't have any clear recollection.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it a usual practice for the President to make a stop
on the motorcade?
Mr. O'DONNELL. If the crowds got too large, he would stop, or if he
saw some child had gone to some great extreme with a sign, he would
sometimes stop. Usually unless the crowds were particularly heavy, or
indicated a need for a stop, he would not stop.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd in downtown Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The nature of the crowd was extremely heavy, one of the
heaviest I have seen in any American city.
Mr. SPECTER. How did they compare with the crowds during the 1960
campaign in Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I would think probably heavier. But very close.
They were both very large crowds, very enthusiastic. I think, as
I have always noticed, to the President and candidate there is a
different aura. But that would be the only difference I would notice
in the crowd. There was a little bit more respect--still the same
enthusiasm. At the last trip in Dallas he stopped the motorcade every
5 minutes--they mobbed the car. There was none of that. But they were
in the middle of the street and off the sidewalks. So there was a very
narrow lane to progress through. But they were still very orderly, but
cheerful.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any specific reaction to the Dallas crowd in
terms of what your expectation might have been about Dallas?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I was pleased with it. As a politician, I was
particularly pleased with it. I thought we had accomplished what we had
come to Dallas to do, was, one, to establish the fact that the average
person living in that city was no different than any other American,
and that they respected and admired their President. And I felt one
of the greatest things that does occur of a political nature is the
Congressmen and the political leaders who had also been reading the
same newspaper about how unpopular he was, it is good for them to see
it really is not true, it is a reflection of a very small minority, and
that the President of the United States was extremely popular in Dallas.
And that was the basic reason we went. And as we finished through the
business section of town, that was my pleased impression.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the scene when you left the Main Street of
downtown Dallas, with respect specifically to the presence of a large
building which was immediately ahead of the motorcade?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I did not. I was looking at the crowd. And I frankly
didn't look at the building, except when there were people in the
windows. And as we made that turn, I had been standing--I remember I
sat down. And as far as I was concerned, that was the end--we were then
going to the luncheon--and I didn't notice any building at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with the identity of the specific plaza
there, being known as Dealey Plaza?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I was not. I afterward have reflected on it many times.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell us what occurred then as you made that turn away from
the crowded downtown Dallas area and headed toward the plaza area.
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I sat down. I remember saying to Dave Powers that
it was a fantastic crowd. He agreed.
We turned. I remember the overpass. And then the shots occurred--which,
at that time, I did not know were shots. My first impression was it was
a firecracker. And then either somebody said, "He has been hit," or I
noticed the slump--he had been waving out the right side of the car,
and I noticed him slump over toward Mrs. Kennedy, and I realized then
that they had been shots. But as fast as that realization occurred,
I saw the third shot hit. It was such a perfect shot--I remember I
blessed myself. I was rather convinced that was a fatal blow.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say you made a turn, which way did the motorcade
turn?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Turned to the left.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how far behind the Presidential vehicle
was the followup car at that time?
Mr. O'DONNELL. My guess would be 5 to 8 feet, the normal--when there
are large crowds, pressing in on the side, they try to stay close. It
was moving at a steady pace. The crowds were orderly. So he was at a
normal--I would presume they were just about turning to step up the
speed a little bit, because there would be no crowds from there.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the President's
vehicle at that time?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Well, I would think we probably were going between 15
and 20, up until that moment, and I think he probably had just begun to
accelerate probably up to about 25, somewhere in that vicinity.
Mr. SPECTER. Had the Secret Service followup car completed its
left-hand turn prior to the time the shots rang out?
Mr. O'DONNELL. My recollection is they had, just about.
I don't recollect a separation of this nature. It was a slight sloping
turn, as I remember, and I thought we were right together.
Mr. SPECTER. So that when you just indicated with your hands, you were
showing a pattern of the Secret Service car having made the turn and
straightened up immediately behind the Presidential vehicle proceeding
down the street?
Mr. O'DONNELL. That is my impression.
Mr. SPECTER. And was the overpass in sight at that time, did you say?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; it was.
Mr. SPECTER. On which side of the car was President Kennedy seated?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He was on the right side.
Mr. SPECTER. The extreme right?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The extreme right.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was he doing with his hands prior to the time of
the shooting, if you recall?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He was waving. We had just left the mass of crowds. But
as we turned on the grass plot there were four or five people there,
and I believe he waved to them.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a right-handed wave?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was Governor Connally seated with respect to the
President?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He was directly in front of the President.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not the President's seat was raised
or was it in its extreme low position at that time?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I would not know.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the President's practice was as to
whether or not the seat would be raised?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I don't know that, either.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the controls were on the Presidential
automobile for raising or lowering the President's seat?
Mr. O'DONNELL. No; I don't.
Mr. SPECTER. How many shots were there in all?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Three.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the total time which
elapsed from the first shot to the last shot?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I would say 5 to 6 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. And was there any distinguishable tempo to the shots?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; the first two came almost simultaneously, came one
right after the other, there was a slight hesitation, then the third
one.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was your reaction as to the source of the shots,
if you had one?
Mr. O'DONNELL. My reaction in part is reconstruction--is that they came
from the right rear. That would be my best judgment.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any reaction by any of the other people around
in any specific direction?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The agents all turned to the rear. I would think,
watching the reaction of the President when the shot--the first shot
hit--that it would be automatic it would have to have come from
the rear. I think any experienced agent would make that assumption
immediately.
Mr. SPECTER. And was the reaction of the agents which you have referred
to as coming from the rear, to the right rear or to the left rear?
Mr. O'DONNELL. The reaction I note would be right rear. And, again,
looking at the manner of the President's movement, I would think you
would have to feel the thrust of the shot was from the right rear.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was there about the President's movement which
leads you to that conclusion?
Mr. O'DONNELL. He was leaning out waving. He may have just been
withdrawing his hand. And the shot hit him, and threw him to the left.
He slumped on Mrs. Kennedy.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to determine a reaction on that slumping
movement, as to whether it was the first, the second, or the third shot?
Mr. O'DONNELL. It was not the third shot. Whether it was the first or
second, I would not know.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think it could have been the second shot?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Yes; I do. If I had to pick one of the two, I think
it might have been the second shot. It seemed to be--but, again, it
is a foggy recollection--it seemed to have been that his movement
coincided--with such a slight difference of time that is just guesswork.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction of Governor Connally in the
car?
Mr. O'DONNELL. I saw the Governor turn toward the President. The
President, in that period of time, had been--they were one right behind
the other. And the only reason I would even notice it was when the
President had slumped to the left, the Governor then turned, and he
was in my view. Otherwise, he would not have been. But the President
slumped over, and, therefore, the Governor just turned and I could see
him. I had no knowledge that he had been hit at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you get the first knowledge that he had been hit?
Mr. O'DONNELL. When the third shot came. The President was hit. The
motorcade accelerated. And one of the agents said, "The Governor has
been hit, too."
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time that President Kennedy shifted to the
left, then, could you see the Governor at all from your position?
Mr. O'DONNELL. Depending on how each one moved, normally, no. The
President was directly behind the Governor. But if the President was
over to the right waving, then you could see the Governor.