Mr. STERN. Did you think about any of the buildings as presenting any
particular problem?
Mr. SORRELS. All buildings are a problem, as far as we are concerned.
That, insofar as I have been concerned--and I am sure that every member
of the Service, especially the Detail--that is always of concern to
us. We always consider it a hazard. During the time that we were
making this survey with the police, I made the remark that if someone
wanted to get the President of the United States, he could do it with
a high-powered rifle and a telescopic sight from some building or some
hillside, because that has always been a concern to us, about the
buildings.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall any further conversation, any further remarks
in that conversation? Did anybody respond to that remark? Only if you
recall.
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall any particular response. Probably there was
confirmation of that fact, because I think that anyone that has had any
experience in security measures would have the same opinion. I don't
recall anyone specifically making any comment like that.
Mr. STERN. But there was no suggestion that anything might be done to
minimize that risk?
Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more than what we always do--try to scan the
windows, and if we see something suspicious, take proper action.
Mr. STERN. When you went over the parade route with the police
officials, did they confirm your view that this was the proper route to
use?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, they did.
Mr. STERN. And there was no concern expressed by them that some other
route might be better for some reason?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. STERN. I would like you now, Mr. Sorrels, to tell us something of
the Protective Research activities that took place in preparation for
the President's visit to Dallas, that you recall.
Mr. SORRELS. At that time, we had no known Protective Research subjects
that we were making periodic checks on in that area. Mr. Lawson
informed me that he had checked with PRS, and that was confirmed.
However, bearing in mind the incidents that had taken place some
time before with Mr. Stevenson, I had instructed Special Agent John
Joe Howlett, to work with the Special Services Bureau of the Police
Department, and I also conferred by phone with the chief of police at
Denton, Tex., because some of those individuals who were involved in
the Stevenson affair were going to college there.
Mr. STERN. What was the Stevenson affair, as far as you knew?
Mr. SORRELS. That was an instance where a number of people were at a
theatre, as I recall it, theatre building, when Mr. Stevenson came out,
and they were there with placards, and one woman is alleged to have hit
him over the head with a placard, and another individual spat upon Mr.
Stevenson, and also a police officer that took him into custody. And
I did not want any such instance to happen when the President of the
United States was there.
Mr. STERN. How soon had that happened before the President's visit?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't remember. It was probably some 60 days, maybe,
before.
It was quite some time before.
But within recent time. And so Mr. Anderson, chief of police, informed
me that he had an informant that was keeping in touch with the
situation. I arranged with the Dallas Police Department for Lieutenant
Revill to accompany Special Agent Howlett to Denton, and confer with
the police there, and to also get photographs of these individuals.
When we were conferring with Mr. Felix McKnight, the managing editor
of the Dallas Times Herald, I learned that--from him--that they had
photographs taken at the Stevenson incident. So arrangements were made
whereby Special Agent Howlett and the members of the Dallas Police
Department, together with the informant in the case, would view those
films, so that there could be pointed out to them individuals known to
have been in the incident.
We had duplicate pictures made, and they were furnished to the special
agent assigned to the Trade Mart, and were shown to the police officers
that were assigned out in that area.
Mr. STERN. Did anything else occur in the field of Protective Research?
Mr. SORRELS. That is all I can recall at the present time.
Now, we had received, I think, some time before, a report from the FBI
of an individual that might be considered a subject that we should
check into. On October 30, Special Agent Vince Drain of the FBI
reported a person, a member supposedly of the Ku Klux Klan in Denison,
Tex., who might be suspected as a person that might try to cause some
trouble if and when the President came to that area.
Lieutenant Revill got a photograph of that individual and he was
checked on, and it was determined that he would not be in that area at
that time.
Mr. STERN. Did the FBI report anything else to your office?
Mr. SORRELS. On the morning of November 21, as I recall it, Special
Agent Hosty came to the office early in the morning with a number of
handbills which bore a picture of the President of the United States,
Mr. Kennedy, with the caption, "Wanted for Treason," with a number of
numbered paragraphs supposedly outlining the reason.
Mr. STERN. Did your office make an investigation of that pamphlet?
Mr. SORRELS. I had previously received the information early in the
morning from the sheriff's office that such handbills had been found
on the streets. We contacted the police department, Lieutenant Revill,
and they had a number of the handbills, and they were just found on
the street. We could not from the police investigation or from our
inquiries, find anyone that had seen anyone actually distributing them.
And we had no other leads on the handbills at that time.
Mr. STERN. Did the Dallas police give you any information of this
nature--I am not referring specifically to the handbills, but to the
Protective Research area, in advance of the President's trip?
Mr. SORRELS. Nothing more than what I believe I have outlined with
Lieutenant Revill's department there.
Mr. STERN. Was there anything else that you recall involving any person
or group that might present a danger to the President?
Mr. SORRELS. There was some individuals from Grand Prairie, Tex., that
were mentioned to us by the police department that were known to be
the type that might appear with handbills or placards--not handbills,
but with placards in the area where the President might appear. And it
developed that they did show up with placards at the Trade Mart, and
they were taken into custody by the police department.
Mr. STERN. Did your office also take steps to assure that there would
be no interference with free speech and lawful public demonstrations?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, we discussed with the police what action would be
taken if people showed up with placards and attempted to interfere. And
it was very definitely stated that if they had placards, just the mere
fact that they had placards would not cause them to be picked up. But
that we did not want them close enough to where the President would
come or where he would be that these might be used to cause any harm to
the President or the Vice President or members of their families.
There had recently been passed in Dallas an ordinance making it
unlawful for any person to interfere or attempt to interfere with or
intimidate another from freely entering premises where a private or
public assembly was being held. We obtained copies of that ordinance
and studied them to see what action the police would be able to take in
the event that any instance arose whereby this ordinance might need to
be enforced.
Mr. STERN. Now, you have told us, Mr. Sorrels, that you had no record
of any PRS subject that you were checking on in your office, and that
Lawson advised you that he had been told of no subject in your area
in his advance check before he left Washington. Did this surprise
you, that there were no individuals who had previously been identified
as potential threats to the President in the territory of the Dallas
office?
Mr. SORRELS. No. We had records of some subjects that were in
institutions, but they were not out where they would be available.
Mr. STERN. Had there been in the past, during your tenure in the Dallas
office, PRS subjects who were not in institutions?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes.
Mr. STERN. But there were none at this particular time?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. STERN. When the incident involving Ambassador Stevenson had
occurred, did you consider obtaining information on the participants
and referring that information to the Protective Research Section in
Washington for their files?
Mr. SORRELS. Not unless the President or the Vice President would come
to that area, I had no intention doing that, because there was no
actual threat, nor was the President of the United States involved in
name or otherwise, insofar as I knew, in connection with the Stevenson
affair.
Mr. STERN. How has the cooperation been with local authorities and
local officers of Federal agencies in advising you of any potential
danger to the President?
Mr. SORRELS. We have received reports of phone calls and threats or
something like that from time to time. I think that all of the Federal
offices that come into any information about a threat concerning the
President of the United States have certainly in the past, to my
recollection--I don't recall any specific instance--but I do know we
have received such reports.
Mr. STERN. And from the local police authorities?
Mr. SORRELS. I can't recall any specific instance, but I am sure that
in the past there have been instances where such a report has been
reported to us.
Mr. STERN. Have you made known to the local authorities the kind of
information in which you would be interested in this area?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. We have participated in the training schools of the
Dallas Police Department, and the Fort Worth Police Department, the
auxiliary schools conducted by the sheriff's office and the Dallas
Police Department.
We have participated in schools at Austin, Tex., given by the
Department of Public Safety to investigative officers, to
sheriffs-elect, deputy sheriffs and other sheriffs.
We have participated at Texas A & M College, at College Station, Tex.,
in their program of police training, where they have students that
are members of various police departments, and other law enforcement
organizations that attend their classes.
And in our course of instruction, we have discussed with them the
protective measures that are required and taken in connection with
the protection of the President of the United States, members of his
family, and the Vice President.
Mr. STERN. How is your liaison with the local police and local offices
of Federal agencies?
Mr. SORRELS. I consider it very, very good.
Mr. STERN. In all respects?
Mr. SORRELS. In all respects; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Had you requested any local Federal agency, for example FBI
or Internal Revenue, to participate in any way in the actual protection
measures for the day of the President's visit?
Mr. SORRELS. I had offers from some of the other agencies, offering
their services in case there was anything they could assist in.
The usual reply to that is that we are working with the local
officials, police department, sheriff's department, Department of
Public Safety, and we feel that we have sufficient manpower to take
care of the program as we have in the past, and we have always
suggested, in not only this instance but in other instances, that if
any member of their department should hear of anything, or see anything
unusual, that they felt we should know about, to please get in touch
with us immediately, along those lines.
Mr. STERN. You felt, then, that the local police forces would supply
all the outside assistance you needed for this visit?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; the Dallas Police Department, in my opinion, has
some very good leaders, career men who have been there for many years,
and due to the fact I have been located in Dallas for many, many years
I know these people personally, and I have never yet called upon the
Dallas Police Department, the Sheriff's Office, or the Department of
Public Safety, for any assistance that we have not gotten and gotten
cheerfully and willingly.
For example, the time that Mr. Kennedy came there to the hospital to
see Mr. Rayburn, is a case where I could tell nobody until just a
matter of 2 or 3 hours before the President would get there, that he
was coming, because the afternoon before, when I heard that he was
coming, it was supposed to have been off the record, and there was not
supposed to be any publicity about it.
The next morning I got a call and said it would be announced at 10
o'clock in the morning.
Well, immediately after that I called Chief Curry and he met me at the
hospital with some of his key men, and the arrangements were set up in
a matter of minutes, you might say, arrangements for the street to be
blocked by the hospital, for sufficient detectives and men to be around
the area, in various places in the hospital, and arrangements were made
to have the police cars to accompany us from the airport down there.
I consider that our relationship with the local enforcement agencies,
not only in the Dallas area, but throughout Texas, is as good as it can
be any place in the country.
Mr. STERN. On the occasion of President Kennedy's visit, they supplied
all the manpower you felt was necessary?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Were all the police that had various functions along the
motorcade route full-time policemen, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS. There may have been, and probably was, some auxiliary
police which may have been along the route that the parade traveled on.
I am not sure about that.
They do have reserves that they call in. But those reserves, they are
not armed--they are in uniform, but they are not armed.
And my records do not show that there were auxiliary police there. But
I do know that they use them on occasion.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Smith, if you have any questions on this aspect of our
interview, please feel free to ask them, because I am going to turn
now to the actual events of the day. I believe that the other advance
preparations are covered adequately for our purposes in Mr. Sorrel's
memorandum, which I am about to introduce.
Mr. SMITH. I have no questions.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I am going to mark this copy of your memorandum
Exhibit 4, Deposition of F. V. Sorrels, May 7, 1964.
Would you initial each page, please?
(Brief recess.)
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, I would like to turn now to the morning of
November 22 and get from you an account of what you observed as a
passenger in the motorcade and thereafter.
In what car were you riding in the motorcade?
Mr. SORRELS. I was riding in what we call the lead car, which is the
one immediately in front of the President's car.
Mr. STERN. What was your function in the lead car?
Mr. SORRELS. To be there with the special agent who had made the
survey, and with the Chief of Police, and to observe the people and
buildings as we drove along in the motorcade.
Mr. STERN. One of your responsibilities was to observe the buildings
and the windows of the buildings?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Looking for what?
Mr. SORRELS. We always do that.
Mr. STERN. What would you be looking for?
Mr. SORRELS. Anything that to us might mean danger.
For example, if someone had an object that appeared to be a gun, or
something like that--that, of course, would attract our attention. Or
if someone appeared to have something they were fixing to throw or
toss, we definitely would take cognizance of that immediately.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall remarking on anything you observed in the
windows as you drove along Main Street?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I do; there was a tremendous crowd on Main Street.
The street was full of people. I made the remark "My God, look at the
people. They are even hanging out the windows." Because I had observed
many people in the windows of the buildings as we were coming along.
Mr. STERN. Now, as you made the right turn from Main Street onto
Houston Street, did you observe anything about the windows of any
building in your view?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I did. Of course the Court House is on the right-hand
side, and the windows there appeared to be closed.
Mr. STERN. To the right-hand side of Houston Street?
Mr. SORRELS. Of Houston Street; yes, sir.
The Book Depository, as we turned to the right on Houston Street, of
course, was right directly in front of us, and just to the left side of
the street. I saw that building, saw that there were some windows open,
and that there were some people looking from the windows. I remember
distinctly there were a couple of colored men that were in windows
almost not quite to the center of the building, probably two floors
down from the top. There may have been one or two other persons that I
may have seen there. I don't recall any specific instance. But I did
not see any activity--no one moving around or anything like that.
Mr. STERN. Do you think you had an opportunity to view all the windows
of the building?
Mr. SORRELS. I did, yes; because it was right in front.
Mr. STERN. Do you recall seeing anything on the side of the building to
your right, any of the windows on that side of the building--the far
right side of the building?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. There was at least one or two windows that were
open in that section over there. I do not recall seeing anyone in any
of those windows. I do not, of course, remember seeing any object or
anything like that in the windows such as a rifle or anything pointing
out the windows. There was no activity, no one moving around that I saw
at all.
Mr. STERN. But you believe you could observe all of the windows on the
side of the building facing you?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. In other words, it is just right down at the end of
the street.
Mr. STERN. Now, the car you were riding in was a closed car, was it not?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; it was a Ford sedan.
Mr. STERN. And you were in the rear seat?
Mr. SORRELS. Right rear.
Mr. STERN. Did the roof of the car obscure your view at all?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes.
Mr. STERN. But you were still able to observe the whole building?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. Of course I was sitting close to--as far over to the
right as I could get, and I could look out the window. I could not, of
course, look up and see any building straight up, or over to my left I
would not have been able to see anything that was any higher than the
view of the window on the left.
Mr. STERN. You didn't have your head actually out of the window?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. But the glass was down in the window.
Mr. STERN. As you turned into Houston Street, Mr. Sorrels, can you
estimate how far in front of the President's car the lead car was?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, probably about 30 feet--fairly close.
Mr. STERN. As you approached the Book Depository Building along Houston
Street, did your ability to see all of the building diminish because of
the angle of your vision and the roof of the car coming in the way?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it would have. The closer you got to it, looking out
from the front part of the car, naturally your vision would diminish as
you approach.
But we turned to the left on Main Street, and at that time just
glancing by, I could see the side of the building from the window where
I was sitting in the car.
Mr. STERN. I believe you mean left onto Elm Street.
Mr. SORRELS. Elm Street--I am sorry.
Mr. STERN. So that when you turned from Houston left onto Elm, you
again had a look at the building?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; you see, as you make the turn--of course, as we
pulled on down Elm Street, after having made the turn, it is actually
more than a right angle turn. It bends even more to the left. And you
can, of course, glance up like that as you go by. But as you go on by
the building, the building is getting away from you, and unless you
would turn clear on around and look out to the right, you would not
be able to see the building after you got a little distance down Elm
Street there.
Mr. STERN. Did you turn to your right and look at the building again as
your car negotiated this turn onto Elm Street?
Mr. SORRELS. As the car was making the turn, yes, I was looking at the
crowd, and just glancing up at the building as we made the turn.
Mr. STERN. Do you believe that you saw all of the windows on the
building at that time?
Mr. SORRELS. As we were making the turn, yes, I would say that I saw
all the windows in the building--just looked at the windows as we made
the turn. But then I was looking at the people along the side of Elm
Street, along each side.
Mr. STERN. Can you estimate, going back to the first turn into Houston
Street, how long an opportunity you had to observe the building, in
time?
Mr. SORRELS. On Houston Street?
Mr. STERN. Yes. As you turned right off Main onto Houston Street, the
building first came into view.
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. STERN. How long did you see the building before the roof obscured
your view?
Mr. SORRELS. Of course I wasn't looking at it all the time. As we came
to the right on Houston Street, of course, the building loomed up in
front, and I just looked at it, and looking at the people along the
side, and as we were making the turn I was just glancing like that, and
saw the building.
I saw nothing unusual or any activity at that time. And then after
making the turn, I did not look at the building any more, or in that
direction, until after the first shot.
Mr. STERN. Are you saying that you only glanced at the building then,
because you were looking at other things?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I looked at the building. I didn't study it intently
and look at that and nothing else around there. I looked at the
building, didn't see any activity, and looked at the people as we had
been doing during the entire motorcade route.
Mr. STERN. Would this have been a matter of several seconds or longer
than that, or can you estimate?
Mr. SORRELS. I think it would be a matter of seconds, yes.
Mr. STERN. It is rather a large building, with a number of windows
along that side, is it not?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; it is a good-sized building. I believe it is seven
stories high.
Mr. STERN. And you think you had enough time, though, to see all the
windows, or is it a general impression.
Mr. SORRELS. Just a general impression.
In other words, I did not specifically study any specific window or
anything like that. It is just like you glance out and see the building
there, you would see some open windows, and maybe some people in
them--that is all. There wasn't any activity or anything like that that
I saw.
Mr. STERN. Now, as you turned left from Houston onto Elm and looked
again at the building, did you have as long a look this time as you had
before?
Mr. SORRELS. No; because he was making a left-hand turn, and, of
course, getting in front of the building, I just glanced out--just as
we made the turn, just in a general way, you are looking at the crowd
and the building, just a glance at it at that time.
Mr. STERN. And at this point you are traveling directly in front of the
building?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. I imagine it would have been difficult to look up and see
the whole building.
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't mean to say that after we made the turn I
looked up and saw the whole building. But just as we made the turn I
looked towards the building and saw people in front, and just glanced
up--I would not say that I saw the entire building at all at that time.
Mr. STERN. And it is your testimony that you saw nothing unusual, that
you observed no one there with a weapon?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. Or any other implement?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. STERN. That several windows were open on the side of the building
at different places?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And that the only people you observed were at one particular
location?
Mr. SORRELS. I recall distinctly about two floors down seeing two
colored men there at the windows. I do not recall seeing--specifically
seeing anyone else. There may have been some one other person over
there. But I do not recall specifically seeing anyone on the right-hand
side of the building, where the window was open. I do not recall that.
Mr. STERN. And the location of the two Negro men that you observed was
in what part of the building?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say that it was about, oh, maybe a third of the
distance from the right to the left, maybe not quite that far.
Mr. STERN. And about two stories down?
Mr. SORRELS. From the top; yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. And when did you observe these Negro men, when you first
turned into Houston, or when you turned from Houston onto Elm?
Mr. SORRELS. I observed them first, when I first looked at the building
I saw them, and I don't recall that I actually saw them again after
that. When we were making the turn I glanced, and as you say, I would
not have been able to see, I don't think all the way to the top of the
building, unless I put my head almost out the window.
But I saw people out in front, and I would not say that I saw the
people as I was making the turn or subsequent to that time.
Mr. STERN. When you looked at the crowd along Houston and Elm, did you
notice anything unusual?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. STERN. You have turned now onto Elm, Mr. Sorrels.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STERN. Why don't you tell us now in your own words and in as much
detail as you remember exactly what you recall transpired next.
Mr. SORRELS. The crowd had begun to thin out after we made the turn
on Elm Street there. As a matter of explanation, Elm Street goes at a
downgrade--in other words, as I said a moment ago, it makes more than
a left-hand--oblique left-hand turn. It curves back--I mean it is more
of a sharp angle than a right angle. And then it swings down a little
curve to go into the underpass.
There is a sidewalk and terrace that goes up to the right, increasing
in height as you approach the underpass from the corner at Elm and
Houston Streets.
We were running late, because the President arrived at Love Field late.
Mr. Lawson was particularly concerned, as we all are, in keeping the
schedule.
I looked back to see how close the President's car was in making the
turn, because we had begun to pick up speed after we made the left-hand
turn.
Then I looked back to the right.
Mr. STERN. How close was the President's car?
Mr. SORRELS. At that time we were probably, oh, I would say, several
car lengths ahead of it, because we had begun to pick up speed.
Mr. STERN. You think somewhat further than you estimated before?
Mr. SORRELS. As we came around Houston, yes, sir; came around on
Houston, yes, because we had begun to pick up speed there. And I
remember Mr. Lawson turned around and said, "I wish he would come on,
because we are late now," or words to that effect.