"Well, it didn't take much money." And it was along that angle, was the
conversation.
Mr. BELIN. Did he admit that he went to Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Oh, yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what community in Mexico he went to?
Mr. HOLMES. Mexico City.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say what he did while he was there?
Mr. HOLMES. He went to the Mexican consulate, I guess.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BELIN. Now, with regard to this Mexican trip, did he say who he saw
in Mexico?
Mr. HOLMES. Only that he went to the Mexican consulate or Embassy or
something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to
Cuba. They refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out
of there, and I don't know. I don't recall now why he went into the
business about how mad it made him.
He goes over to the Russian Embassy. He was already at the American.
This was the Mexican--he wanted to go to Cuba.
Then he went to the Russian Embassy and he said, because he said then
he wanted to go to Russia by way of Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba
and try that angle and they refused and said, "Come back in 30 days,"
or something like that. And, he went out of there angry and disgusted.
Mr. BELIN. Did he go to the Cuban Embassy, did he say or not?
Mr. HOLMES. He may have gone there first, but the best of my
recollection, it might have been Cuban and then the Russian, wherever
he went at first, he wanted to get to Cuba, and then he went to the
Russian to go by Cuba.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say why he wanted to go to Cuba?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did--this wasn't reported in your interview in the
memorandum that you wrote?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Is this something that you think you might have picked up
from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing?
Mr. HOLMES. That is what he said in there.
Mr. BELIN. All right; I want to go back to page 2 of this memorandum.
I believe we went through the first paragraph on page 2 when you said
that there wasn't anything you cared to add there other than what is
reported on this Holmes Deposition Exhibit 4?
Mr. HOLMES. Except what he mentioned about it was easier about the
forwarding orders of newspapers. Otherwise, no change.
Mr. BELIN. Now, what about the next paragraph on page 2?
Mr. HOLMES. I think I have covered that.
Mr. BELIN. All right, then. The next paragraph on page 2, which is the
third and last paragraph on the page.
Mr. HOLMES. I believe I have mentioned the fact that he was evasive
about whether he was actually a member of the American Civil Liberties
Union. In this statement I have mentioned that he was evasive about it.
Mr. BELIN. Does that statement cover everything, or is there anything
you care to add to that statement?
Mr. HOLMES. I can't think of anything of any particular importance
there.
Mr. BELIN. Then turn to page 3, the first paragraph. Is there anything
you can or care to add to that paragraph that isn't covered right here?
Mr. HOLMES. All right as is.
Mr. BELIN. What about the second paragraph on page 3?
Mr. HOLMES. I have covered that.
Mr. BELIN. What about the third paragraph which begins with "Marine
Corps Service."
Mr. HOLMES. I don't believe that I discussed that yet.
Mr. BELIN. You haven't discussed it, but is there anything you care to
add other than what is written on there?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate anything else about Governor Connally?
Mr. HOLMES. No. I have covered that in there. In fact, I got the
distinct impression that he showed no flareup, no animosity when
Connally's name was mentioned. He simply considered him--somebody was
shuffling the papers around, and he had no particular animosity toward
him. I remember that distinctly.
Mr. BELIN. Did he seem to have any animosity toward President Kennedy?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Now, take a look at the first paragraph on page 3 and read
that and see if there is anything you care to add to that?
Mr. HOLMES. No; I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. What about the fifth paragraph on the page?
Mr. HOLMES. I haven't discussed that.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything you would care to add to that?
Mr. HOLMES. No, sir. That is as he stated it.
Mr. BELIN. What about the last paragraph on page 3?
Mr. HOLMES. That is as I recall it at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Now, in the last paragraph on page 3, it says that when
asked why he went to visit his wife on Thursday night, whereas he
normally visited her on the weekends, and he said on that particular
weekend there was going to be a party for children. They were having a
house full of children and he didn't want to be around at such a time.
And, therefore, he made the weekly visit on Thursday night?
Mr. HOLMES. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. Did anyone question him about curtain rods, that you
remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What was that about curtain rods?
Mr. HOLMES. Asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the car
with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, "Yes."
"What was in the sack?"
"Well, my lunch."
"What size sack did you have?"
He said, "Oh, I don't know what size sack. You don't always get a sack
that fits your sandwiches. It might be a big sack."
"Was it a long sack?"
"Well, it could have been."
"What did you do with it?"
"Carried it in my lap."
"You didn't put it over in the back seat?"
"No." He said he wouldn't have done that.
"Well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long
package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at
work and you laid it over on the back seat."
He said, "Well, they was just mistaken. That must have been some other
time he picked me up."
That is all he said about it.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any other questions asked about curtain rods.
Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall.
Mr. BELIN. All right, I turn to the top of page 4, which is the next
paragraph, and I see that you have this recorded in your memorandum.
You have this all recorded here except you don't mention the sentence
about the curtain rods?
Mr. HOLMES. So that has been elaborated on in that paragraph.
Mr. BELIN. All right, anything else you care to elaborate on that first
paragraph on page 4?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. All right, the second paragraph on page 4 pertaining to his
whereabouts at the time of the shooting. Would you care to elaborate on
that?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe it is just about as I have stated. No elaboration.
Mr. BELIN. Then the third paragraph on page 4 was about an A. J. Hidell
identification card. Would you care to read that and see if there is
anything on that?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he
was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the
shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just
coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently
there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that,
if you remember?
Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing
there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else?
Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than what I have already told you on it.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else that you care to add to the third paragraph on
page 4?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. Now, here in the fourth paragraph, which is the last
paragraph of page 4, the last paragraph of your memorandum, anything
else you care to add to that?
Mr. HOLMES. I believe not.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that you
think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, Mr.
Holmes? Have you found now in your records the money order number that
was involved in the purchase of the rifle?
Mr. HOLMES. The money order number that was found in Washington and
matched the original money order was number 2-202-130-462, issued at
the main office in Dallas, Tex., on March 12, 1963, in the amount of
$21.45.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have any information on the money order for the
pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order?
Mr. HOLMES. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now, Mr. Holmes, I wonder if you could try and think if
there is anything else that you remember Oswald saying about where he
was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time
of the assassination?
Mr. HOLMES. Nothing more than I have already said. If you want me to
repeat that?
Mr. BELIN. Go ahead and repeat it.
Mr. HOLMES. See if I say it the same way?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. HOLMES. He said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the
upper floors with a Negro.