Mr. BELIN. What was the conversation? Who said what?
Mr. HOLMES. I don't know who started the conversation, but it had
gotten into "Do you have an attorney?" He said, "No."
"Well, do you want an attorney?"
And he said, "No." Then he said, "Well, I tried to get a fellow from
New York." But he said he wasn't able to get hold of him.
And I think he is a Civil Liberties Union lawyer. He mentioned
something about he looks after their interests in New York. I don't
remember the name, but they discussed that.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be something like Abt?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes; short name. That could well be it.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else? Did he ever ask for any other lawyer or for
any lawyer?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember that while this was going on if the chief of
police came to the office?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Along toward the end of the interrogation several
people kept milling around outside of Captain Fritz' office and I
noticed the chief of police out there, and they would rap on the door,
and once in a while crack the door and look in, and gave all the
appearance of being impatient.
But Captain Fritz is a quiet and deliberate sort of individual and
said, "Don't worry about the men. If you got any more questions, ask
him."
Mr. BELIN. Who would be the people knocking and tapping on the window
and would be impatient?
Mr. HOLMES. It was Chief Curry, and I didn't recognize the others,
but there were people who later took him on downstairs, so they were
waiting. They wanted to make this transfer, is what it was. In fact,
the captain mentioned, he said, "We are going to have a little while to
talk. I don't know how long, because they want to effect this transfer."
And everybody assumed that that was why they were getting impatient
outside about, they wanted to go ahead and complete the transfer.
Mr. BELIN. Were there glass walls on Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes; with venetian blinds.
Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds closed?
Mr. HOLMES. They were closed, but you could see around the edges and
through and every once in a while someone would lift a blind, and once
in a while they would crack the door and look in.
Mr. BELIN. Were the venetian blinds inside or outside, or do you know?
Mr. HOLMES. I don't know, to tell you the truth.
Mr. BELIN. About how big was the office?
Mr. HOLMES. Just about as wide as this is.
Mr. BELIN. You want to pace it off here?
Mr. HOLMES. I would say 10 by 15, personally, feet.
Mr. BELIN. How many doors?
Mr. HOLMES. One door.
Mr. BELIN. Were there any other people outside there that morning other
than the police officers, that you know of?
Mr. HOLMES. I recognized a couple of FBI agents. I couldn't call their
names.
Mr. BELIN. Any press people that you recognized?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now.
Mr. HOLMES. Of course, when we speak of outside Fritz' office, it is
still an inclosure where you go out another door to go into the hall
where the public mills around. He had a suite of rooms.
Mr. BELIN. You had one of the rooms in that suite?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. In fact, he is in charge of all the rooms, but he has
one private office of his own, and that is where we were.
Mr. BELIN. You do remember Chief Curry coming in?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember any conversation that transpired between
Chief Curry and Captain Fritz?
Mr. HOLMES. As Chief Curry came in, someone handed some clothes on a
hanger. It was maybe a sports shirt and a couple of pair of slacks, and
I recall there were two sweaters and he said, "I will just take one of
those sweaters." They gave him one sweater that he did not like. No, he
said, "Give me the black one."
So he takes it, a little slip-over sweater. So, while he was putting
that on, Chief Curry came around the other side of the desk and took
Will Fritz over in the corner and they bowed their heads and discussed
in an undertone. Apparently, I got the impression they weren't trying
to hide anything from us, but they didn't want Oswald to overhear what
they were saying. They were mumbling in an undertone and I didn't
distinguish one thing that was said.
Mr. BELIN. Did Oswald ask to have a sweater or some clothes brought in?
Mr. HOLMES. Yes. Well, I don't know that he asked. I will take that
back. I don't know that he asked. All I know, they handed it in and
said, "Do you want any of those clothes, or do you want to change your
clothes?"
And he said, "I will take one of the sweaters." They gave him the wrong
sweater and he didn't like that and he asked for the other. And they
uncuffed him and he slipped his arm in and they handcuffed him back up,
and that is the only change. It was a black slipover kind of =V=-neck
sweater.
Then they walked him out of the office and I stayed in the office with
the two Secret Service men.
Mr. BELIN. So you didn't accompany Oswald when they left?
Mr. HOLMES. No.
Mr. BELIN. When did you first learn that Oswald had been shot?
Mr. HOLMES. I told Sorrels, I said, "I have my car down the street.
Let's go down to my office, because it is directly across the
reflecting pool from this School Depository Building and from the
sheriff's office and entrance where they will take him in. Let's go
down to my office and we can look at it from my window and have a
better eye view in case anything happens." And he said, "Well, I have
my car down there too, and I will need to have it to get back to my
office, so I will just take my own car."
So, I immediately went downstairs and got in my car and proceeded to my
office, which probably took me ten minutes.
When I got to the sidewalk of the terminal annex I parked my car and
walked right in the door. One of the inspectors who was watching this
box, they still had the surveillance on the box--said, "Well, they got
Oswald now."