Mr. BARNES. Might question why you did or why you didn't do it on
something this big. We felt like the public should know that we done
the best that we knew how.
Mr. BELIN. Even though you didn't expect to have results?
Mr. BARNES. I didn't personally, and I am the one that made it.
From my experience with paraffin casts and from my experience in
shooting rifles, common sense will tell you that a man firing a rifle
has got very little chance of getting powder residue on his cheek.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin cast of your cheek after you
fired a rifle?
Mr. BARNES. No; I have not.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever made a paraffin test of anyone else's cheek
after that person fired a rifle?
Mr. BARNES. I believe I am on record that that is the first paraffin
test I ever made of a cheek.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever read periodicals discussing the paraffin test?
Any limitations of its use to determine whether or not a person fired a
rifle by making a cast of the cheek?
Mr. BARNES. No; I haven't read anything about it.
Mr. BELIN. Basically then, your reasons for reaching this conclusion
are your own personal reasons?
Mr. BARNES. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. What you earlier described as the chamber being an enclosed
chamber, is that it?
Mr. BARNES. That is true.
Mr. BELIN. Which you said that the gases would not come out of under
pressure, and when the chamber would be open for the ejection of a
shell from a bolt-action rifle, at that time there would be no bad
pressure?
Mr. BARNES. All your pressure is gone forward through your barrel.
There is no pressure on the chamber when you operate it after the shot
is fired.
Mr. BELIN. In contrast with a nonautomatic revolver, when I pull the
trigger, is the back of the chamber open then?
Mr. BARNES. It is open.
Mr. BELIN. Is there any other information or opinion you can give us
with regard to the paraffin tests that might be relevant. Anything you
can think of, whether or not I have asked it?
Mr. BARNES. I believe you have covered just about everything.
Mr. BELIN. I call myself a country lawyer, and I don't know.
Mr. BARNES. I am a country boy. I was raised on the farm myself.
Mr. BELIN. Well, maybe we both have something in common.
Mr. BARNES. Still live there.
Mr. BELIN. Sergeant, did you make any other tests or obtain any other
evidence or information from Lee Harvey Oswald other than the paraffin
that you made?
Mr. BARNES. I obtained palm prints from Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr. BELIN. When did you do this?
Mr. BARNES. Immediately before we made--no, immediately after, I am
sorry, immediately after we made the paraffin test.
Mr. BELIN. I would assume you did it afterwards?
Mr. BARNES. That is right. It was after we made the tests.
Mr. BELIN. Now, when you used the phrase a while ago--I mean that when
we were discussing shortly before we were taking this deposition just
what you did do insofar as your being involved in this investigation----
Mr. BARNES. That's right.
Mr. BELIN. In that discussion did I in any way tell you what to say, or
did you just tell me what you did in the nature of the proceedings here?
Mr. BARNES. I told you just what I did. I haven't been prompted by no
one.
Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do when you took the palm print?
Mr. BARNES. We took them back upstairs to the ID bureau for comparison
purposes.
Mr. BELIN. At the time you carried back the paraffin casts?
Mr. BARNES. No. We came back and got the palm prints after I delivered
the paraffin tests upstairs.
Mr. BELIN. Again, would this be normal procedure to take a palm print
in Captain Fritz' office as opposed to your own laboratory?
Mr. BARNES. No; it would be something different. Usually we have them
coming up to our identification bureau for that purpose.
Mr. BELIN. Any particular reason that you know of why Lee Harvey Oswald
wasn't brought up to your identification bureau?
Mr. BARNES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What?
Mr. BARNES. Security.
Mr. BELIN. Because of the people in the hall?
Mr. BARNES. The news media in the hallways, and danger of removing Lee
Harvey Oswald through the mass of newspapermen.
Mr. BELIN. Did the newspapermen say anything to you as you went down
the hallway to Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. BARNES. Everytime that you went through there they asked you all
kinds of questions on what you had and what were you doing and how much
longer is it going to take, and what have you proved.
Mr. BELIN. Did you answer any of these questions?
Mr. BARNES. No; I did not.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back in the office in Captain
Fritz' office? What did you find there? Who did you find in Captain
Fritz' office when you came back?
Mr. BARNES. Same two officers that I mentioned, besides Detective
Dhority and Detective Leavelle.
Mr. BELIN. Was Lee Oswald present?
Mr. BARNES. Lee Oswald was present.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have any conversation with Oswald at that time?
Mr. BARNES. None other than telling him that I had to have palm prints
of his hand.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything to say about that?
Mr. BARNES. Cooperative.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether he made any objection to the
taking of any palm prints?
Mr. BARNES. None whatsoever.
Mr. BELIN. Did he request that he have an attorney present at all, or
not?
Mr. BARNES. He didn't request one. He would not sign the fingerprint
card when I asked him. We have a place on this card for the prisoner's
signature, and I asked him would he please sign that, and he said he
wouldn't sign anything until he talked to an attorney.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ask for an attorney or say anything about an attorney
when you took the paraffin test?
Mr. BARNES. None to me.
Mr. BELIN. What did you say when he said he would not sign the
fingerprint card?
Mr. BARNES. That was all right with me.
Mr. BELIN. Did you just take the palm prints, or did you also take
fingerprints?
Mr. BARNES. We took both.
Mr. BELIN. What is your process of doing that?
Mr. BARNES. Rolling his hands, an ink roller over his palm, and then
we have a metal cylinder bar about an inch in diameter that we place
the card on and then roll his hands to make it print on the fingerprint
card.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever taken palm prints before?
Mr. BARNES. Many times.
Mr. BELIN. Based on your knowledge and information, what is the fact as
to whether or not palm prints are distinct means of identification of a
person?
Mr. BARNES. Just as good as fingerprints The only thing that I could
add to that would be, there is no way of classifying palm prints, where
with fingerprints, we have the system where we classify them and can go
look them up.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you can offer with reference
to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of Officer
Tippit other than the paraffin test and the palm and fingerprint tests
that you took?
Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of right now, other than printing
pictures of both killings.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Lee Oswald said other
than the fact he would not sign his name to the card?
Mr. BARNES. He had very little to say.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have
asked it or not, that in anyway might be relevant to this investigation
here?
Mr. BARNES. Not that I can think of at this time.
Mr. BELIN. Now were you on duty on Sunday morning, November 24?
Mr. BARNES. No; I was not.
Mr. BELIN. Was there any general comment among the police officers,
what I call the line officers, about the presence of the press in the
police headquarters building during this period of time?
Mr. BARNES. Yes; we discussed it.
Mr. BELIN. Without mentioning any names which might embarrass any
individual, and without necessarily quoting yourself, what was the
general nature or tenor of that discussion?
Mr. BARNES. Disgusted.
Mr. BELIN. Was there any objections that were voiced about this, or not?
Mr. BARNES. Yes; there were.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of the
press in any way affected the handling of this matter by the police
department?
Mr. BARNES. It would be just like you carrying on your work in your
office when you had it full of newspapermen or anybody else, as far as
that is concerned.
Mr. BELIN. Were there people other than newspapermen generally in the
police headquarters?
Mr. BARNES. It is hard to tell just who was who.
Mr. BELIN. Now you were not there at the time of the shooting of Lee
Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby, were you?
Mr. BARNES. No; I was not.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the television showing of the film that ran
during the--during that time?
Mr. BARNES. Yes; I did.
Mr. BELIN. You have had some experience, you said earlier, as a
photographer, I believe, is that correct?
Mr. BARNES. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What is the fact as to whether or not the presence of light
such as you say you saw in the movie film that you saw--what is the
fact as to whether or not the presence of these lights would affect the
ability of officers protecting Lee Harvey Oswald to discern movements
of people?
Mr. BARNES. Very much.
Mr. BELIN. In what way?
Mr. BARNES. Blinding them. The flash from the many cameras that were
present in the basement of the city hall, the lights set up by your TV
cameramen, all of this would work against the officers in safeguarding
any prisoner.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else you can think of with reference to
the security matters of Lee Harvey Oswald that might be relevant here
other than your statements about the press and the problems of light?
Mr. BARNES. Other than the movement of him with the throngs of press
men, which the security I thought was very good.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else you can think of right now?
Mr. BARNES. None that I can think of at this time.
Mr. BELIN. Is there anything else that you care to add in this
deposition that might in any way be helpful or relevant?
Mr. BARNES. I think this pretty well covers it.
Mr. BELIN. Well, we want to thank you very much for your cooperation in
coming down here, sergeant.
Mr. BARNES. I am glad to come. Hate to come under these circumstances.
Mr. BELIN. We hate to be here under these circumstances. It is not a
pleasant job for any of us, but it is a job that has to be done. All
right, sir.
I forgot to say that you have a right to, if you like, to read your
deposition and sign it, or else you can waive reading and have the
court reporter send it to us in Washington.
Mr. BARNES. I believe I will come back and let her show it to me, and I
will sign it then.