The testimony of F. M. Turner was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. TURNER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.
Mr. TURNER. F. M. Turner.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Turner?
Mr. TURNER. I live at Garland, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. That is a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. TURNER. Detective of the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. TURNER. About 13 years this September.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mr. TURNER. Thirty-five.
Mr. BELIN. Married?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Family?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?
Mr. TURNER. Murphy, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Spent all your life in Texas?
Mr. TURNER. Except for a couple of years in the service.
Mr. BELIN. Was that after you got out of high school?
Mr. TURNER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you go in high school?
Mr. TURNER. Finished.
Mr. BELIN. You finished high school?
Mr. TURNER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. Went in the service.
Mr. BELIN. Was that high school in Murphy?
Mr. TURNER. No; it was Plano, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the service?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. In the Army or Navy?
Mr. TURNER. Coast Guard.
Mr. BELIN. Coast Guard?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?
Mr. TURNER. I was a storekeeper.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have a discharge from the Coast Guard, too?
Mr. TURNER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you get an honorable discharge?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. When I first came out, I went to work as a carpenter's
helper up around Plano there. I worked at that a short while. And then
I worked for the Plano Lumber Yard in Richardson, Tex., and I worked
there until I came to work for the police department.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. TURNER. I was.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the motorcade?
Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What was your position?
Mr. TURNER. I was riding in the pilot car of the motorcade, possibly 3
minutes in front of the motorcade.
Mr. BELIN. Who else was with your car?
Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin from our department.
Mr. BELIN. Is he an assistant chief of police?
Mr. TURNER. Deputy chief of police.
Mr. BELIN. Anyone else?
Mr. TURNER. My partner, Detective B. L. Senkel, and an Army major whose
name I do not remember.
Mr. BELIN. You went to Love Field to meet the President?
Mr. TURNER. In the car also was a Secret Service man, whose name I do
not remember. Yes, sir; I did go to Love Field to meet the President.
Mr. BELIN. You saw the plane arrive?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You got prepared to leave a little bit ahead of time of the
motorcade?
Mr. TURNER. We did. We drove to a gate on the outward edge of Love
Field and waited until we got some radio contact from the chief. They
were about ready to leave, and we had a running start.
Mr. BELIN. How many channels did you have on your radio?
Mr. TURNER. Two.
Mr. BELIN. Which channel were you on?
Mr. TURNER. Channel 2.
Mr. BELIN. Was the entire motorcade on channel 2?
Mr. TURNER. The entire motorcade was on channel 2, and I believe there
was a dispatcher at the central station on channel 2, that relayed some
of the changes, and some of the messages were car to car, back and
forth.
Mr. BELIN. Other police business would be on channel 1, at the time, or
also on channel 2?
Mr. TURNER. Other police business was on channel 1.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you went through the city ahead of the actual
motorcade, is that correct?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep track of where the motorcade was?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.
Mr. BELIN. By radio did you keep track of how fast the motorcade was
going?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any radio
conversation as to how fast the motorcade was going at the time it got
to Main and Houston?
Mr. TURNER. I don't recall.
Mr. BELIN. Who did you keep your primary radio contact with?
Mr. TURNER. Chief Curry.
Mr. BELIN. Now where were you when you first heard any signs of
anything out of the ordinary?
Mr. TURNER. We were on Stemmons Freeway. I don't recall approximately,
at the Oak Lawn exit, or somewhere right in that vicinity.
Mr. BELIN. What did you hear on the police radio?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I heard some conversation, either sounded like
Curry's voice or Sheriff Decker's voice, who was riding in the car with
him. I believe it said, sounded like Sheriff Decker said notify all men
to get over there and cover off the area around this building there
until some investigators could get there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you return to the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TURNER. Well, yes; but I don't believe he mentioned that building.
I believe he just mentioned the overpass over the Elm Street. He said
cover off that area around the overpass, I believe.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's car come by your car?
Mr. TURNER. Out on the expressway, I did; yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where was the President's car headed?
Mr. TURNER. Parkland Hospital.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TURNER. We fell in behind it in our car.
Mr. BELIN. You went over to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. TURNER. We went up by the exit there and helped sort of control the
crowd, and I never did go in. They unloaded the President's car.
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them unload the President's car?
Mr. TURNER. Off and on, I mean, I was more or less mingling in the
crowd, trying to restrain the crowd where they could have room to work.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded Governor Connally?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded the President?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. We got back in Chief Lumpkin's car along with him, and we
come back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. When did you get back there, approximately?
Mr. TURNER. In relation to time, I don't know. But it was just about
a short while. I would say, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes after it
happened. We just started out there in a matter of minutes, and we
drove code 3, with the sirens on, and we came back down here.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin told me to search out a caboose to a train
that was parked at the rear of the building. I went in and searched
this boxcar out, and come out of there, and by that time they were
already in the building, I supposed. I went in the building and that is
when I ran across this Mr. Campbell and Truly.
Mr. BELIN. Now let me ask you this. Did you find anything in the boxcar?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any railroad employee over there?
Mr. TURNER. At the boxcar?
Mr. BELIN. Or in this area, did you talk to anybody?
Mr. TURNER. No sir; this was a caboose of a boxcar, that is what it
was, sitting there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone over there that indicated where they
heard the shots came from?
Mr. TURNER. Talked to these people from the School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Prior to the time you got to the School Book Depository, did
you talk to anyone?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you say you saw Mr. Campbell and Mr. Truly,
and who else?
Mr. TURNER. Mr. Molina.
Mr. BELIN. They all worked there?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; they said they did.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you talk to them?
Mr. TURNER. Down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a
warehouse like.
Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they heard the shots come from?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. BELIN. What did they say?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I believe they said they thought they all came from
west of the building at that time.
Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they were when they heard the shots, when
the shots came?
Mr. TURNER. Well, according to my notes, Mr. Truly stated that he was
at the front of the store watching the parade in the front of the
building, and Mr. Campbell had walked across the street, and this Joe
Molina, I don't have on here where he was. He just said he worked in
the warehouse.
Mr. BELIN. That is all your notes show on him?
Mr. TURNER. Said they all thought the sound came from west of their
building.
Mr. BELIN. Can I take a look at that book of yours? It might cut down
the questioning?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; this is more or less some notes.
Mr. BELIN. You are handing me kind of a spiral notebook that you have.
I notice here, well, let me ask you this. Then what did you do after
that?
Mr. TURNER. About that time there was a deputy sheriff, Mr. Sweatt,
come over and told me they sent a witness over to their office, which
was located diagonally across the street, and said this witness might
be able to shed light on the description of a suspect, so I went to the
sheriff's office and I stayed there for quite some spell talking to
witnesses.
Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to?
Mr. TURNER. Several of them. I would have to look up their names.
Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at your index in your little notebook, I see
you have something about an Arnold Rowland there?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; I talked to Rowland.
Mr. BELIN. What do your notes say you talked to Rowland about? What did
Rowland say, according to your notes?
Mr. TURNER. Said he was standing. I don't know whether he was with
his wife or his girl friend, I don't know what connection, they were
standing on Houston between Main and Elm, approximately 15 minutes
before the President arrived. They saw a man standing back in the
background of an open window two floors from the top.
Mr. BELIN. Two floors from the top?
Mr. TURNER. That is what he said. The man appeared to have a rifle with
scope on it in his hand and he noticed another thing that he said about
this, he said the man was standing on the west side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. The west side of the south side of the building?
Mr. TURNER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?
Mr. TURNER. He thought it was a security man, is the reason that he
made no issue of it. I am unable to give a description except a white
man, and that he heard three shots.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he saw, or not; do you
remember?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't remember any further. There was a court
reporter there and so forth, and they took an affidavit of him at the
time.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about seeing any other man in the window
in any other windows there?
Mr. TURNER. Not that I recall.
Mr. BELIN. All right, did you interview any Ronald Fischer or a Robert
Edwards?
Mr. TURNER. I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards.
Mr. BELIN. What do you have about them?
Mr. TURNER. They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing
on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an
open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair
was longer than a crewcut.
Mr. BELIN. What else did they say?
Mr. TURNER. That is all the notes I have. Like I said, there was an
affidavit taken from them at the time, too.
Mr. BELIN. Now this is with regards to the--do you have this under
Fischer or under Edwards, or both?
Mr. TURNER. Under both. They were more or less together at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Did they think they could identify the man?
Mr. TURNER. Thought they said they could identify him.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take pictures out for either one of them?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; I have.
Mr. BELIN. Which one?
Mr. TURNER. The one that lives in Mesquite, whichever one that is.
Mr. BELIN. That is Ronald Fischer?
Mr. TURNER. Whatever that is.
Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say about the pictures?
Mr. TURNER. He said it could be the man he saw, but he couldn't
remember positive.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give you any more identification of the man?
Mr. TURNER. None other than that.
Mr. BELIN. You were at the sheriff's office then and took part in the
taking of various affidavits there?
Mr. TURNER. I questioned witnesses. I didn't take any of the
affidavits, but they did send court reporters and secretaries up and
affidavits was taken from them.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember, you yourself, questioning a Howard Leslie
Brennan or anyone questioning a Brennan?
Mr. TURNER. Brennan, let me check. I've got a Charles F. Brehan
[spelling] B-r-e-h-a-n, that I talked to.
Mr. BELIN. No; that is not the one.
Mr. TURNER. Probably I didn't. That was probably the name I was
thinking of when you said Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. All right, while you were there, did you learn that an
officer had been shot?
Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what happened?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I stayed down there for quite some time talking
to these witnesses, and then I went back over to the School Book
Depository Building to check and see if my partner was there.
Mr. Senkel hadn't seen him in quite a while and didn't locate him.
There was several officers over there, Special Service, still had the
building secured, and you want this mentioned that coat business in
there?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. TURNER. The coat has no bearing on the case.
Mr. BELIN. You mean in your statement I have with reference to a coat
being found on Industrial Street?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; as far as I know, that still has no bearing in
the case, but it was placed in the property room.
Mr. BELIN. You just found a coat somewhere?
Mr. TURNER. Well, a Mr. Kaminski from the police department handed me
a coat when I went back over to the building, with a note of who had
turned it into him, where it was found, and he had no idea whether it
had any bearing on the case or not.
Mr. BELIN. Have you investigated?
Mr. TURNER. As far as I know, the coat does not have any bearing on the
case.
Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.
Mr. TURNER. After I left there, I went back to the sheriff's office and
I talked to the one lieutenant in our office then and found out that
Mr. Senkel had gone back to our office, so he in turn, he told me I
might as well come on up there, looked like things, about all I could
do down there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. I went to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?
Mr. TURNER. Well, when I walked in there, one of the lieutenants
was talking about finding a justice of the peace to obtain a search
warrant, and I told him that I just left the sheriff's office and one
of the J.P.'s was down there when I left, David Johnston, and so he
said, "Well, see if you can get ahold of him and get a warrant for this
address on North Beckley and carry the warrant over there."
Mr. BELIN. Would that have been 1026 North Beckley?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I am sure it is. I have to look in the paper here
a minute; 1026 North Beckley.
Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do there?
Mr. TURNER. Well, Detective Moore was in the office. He and I got a car
and drove down by the, back down to the sheriff's office, and when we
got there, Judge Johnston and one of the assistant district attorneys,
Bill Alexander, was standing on the front steps waiting for us, because
someone got ahold of him by phone and told them I was on the way.
Mr. BELIN. Was that Detective H. M. Moore?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. We went on over, the four of us--me, Detective Moore, Judge
Johnston, and Mr. Alexander--went over to 1026 North Beckley where this
Lee Oswald had a room in it.
Mr. BELIN. You went over there on November 22?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now according to one record that I have of a search warrant,
it is dated November 23. Do you have any particular knowledge whether
the search warrant was actually dated November 22 or November 23?
Mr. TURNER. I don't remember the date on it, but I know he had the
warrant made out, and handed it to me when I got in the car, but I
don't remember the date on the warrant.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. We looked through this room and picked up everything in it
that didn't belong with the house, you know.
Mr. BELIN. Where was W. E. Potts and Bill Senkel?
Mr. TURNER. They were along with Lieutenant Cunningham and the three
were there when we got there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. We picked up all the articles and brought them to the
homicide and robbery office of the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. You made out an inventory of them there?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Moore Deposition
Exhibit 1," and ask you to state whether this appears to be a copy of
an inventory that you made?