Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we took him back up to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. About what time was this?
Mr. SIMS. 7:55.
Mr. BALL. And who was there at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Mr. Clements, and he continued his interrogation of Oswald
for about another half hour.
Mr. BALL. And were you present?
Mr. SIMS. I probably was; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who was present besides you?
Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say--I know Boyd was and I was present, but I
don't know if he was in there all the time or not.
Mr. BALL. Now, during this time, or sometime during this
period--sometime between these three showups, you searched Oswald,
didn't you?
Mr. SIMS. The first one; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that was what time?
Mr. SIMS. It was 4:05, I believe, but I will have to check my record
here and see [checking his record referred to].
Mr. BALL. That was after the second showup?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the first one.
Mr. BALL. After the first showup?
Mr. SIMS. It was before the first showup.
Mr. BALL. It was before the first showup--the 4:05?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And that was after the first interrogation?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And where were you when you first searched him?
Mr. SIMS. We was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room.
Mr. BALL. When you took Oswald down for the first showup and waited in
the room outside, the showup room, you searched him?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd and I.
Mr. BALL. What did you find?
Mr. SIMS. I found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket.
Mr. BALL. And what else?
Mr. SIMS. Well, Boyd found some .38 cartridges in his pocket.
Mr. BALL. How many?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know--I have it here--I believe it's five rounds of
.38 caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket.
Mr. BALL. Left-front shirt pocket?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they were in his pants pocket.
Mr. BALL. Left front?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where was the transfer?
Mr. SIMS. The transfer was in his shirt pocket.
Mr. BALL. Would that be on the left side, I suppose?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he's got two pockets or not.
Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at it.
Mr. SIMS. (Examined Exhibit hereinafter referred to).
Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit 150 is being exhibited for the witness'
examination.
Mr. SIMS. Well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if I have it
on here--what pocket it was--I didn't say--I don't remember what pocket
he had that in.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with the transfer?
Mr. SIMS. I went back up to the office and I believe initialed it and
placed it in an envelope for identification.
Mr. BALL. Who did you turn it over to?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or Captain
Fritz' desk.
Mr. BALL. Lieutenant who?
Mr. SIMS. We have two in there--Lieutenant Wells and Lieutenant Bohart.
Mr. BALL. And what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did
you do with those?
Mr. SIMS. It was also placed in the envelope.
Mr. BALL. And turned over to whom--Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that was turned over to.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to a busdriver named McWatters?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I remember a busdriver coming up there but I don't
think I talked with him.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date?
Mr. SIMS. The busdriver did. He identified that as coming from his
punch-card.
Mr. BALL. I know, but I want to know about you--did you look at the
transfer?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I looked at it.
Mr. BALL. Did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on
the transfer?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if I did or not. I'm sure I looked at it but
I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. You say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks
about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. So, you are just telling me what some other officer told you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. SIMS. I didn't see actually the busdriver, I don't believe,
identify his transfer.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the
busdriver?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any identification bracelet on Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet.
Mr. BALL. Did he have that on at the time of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever remove that?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his
hands.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do with that identification bracelet?
Mr. SIMS. I placed it in the property room cardsheet.
Mr. BALL. Did you examine that identification bracelet?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did it have on it, if you remember?
Mr. SIMS. It had his name on it.
Mr. BALL. And what was it made out of? What material?
Mr. SIMS. It was, I guess, sterling silver. It was a regular G.I.
identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the
top.
Mr. BALL. Now, we are up to the time after the last showup when Mr.
Clements interrogated Oswald for about half an hour; what happened
after the interrogation by Mr. Clements?
Mr. SIMS. At 8:55 Detective Johnny Hicks and R. L. Studebaker of the
crime lab came to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. What did they do?
Mr. SIMS. Hicks fingerprinted Oswald and then Sgt. Pete Barnes came in.
Mr. BALL. What is his name?
Mr. SIMS. Pete Barnes. He is working with the crime lab also.
Mr. BALL. And what did Barnes do?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--I don't
know for sure.
Mr. BALL. Is he a crime lab man also?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir, and then shortly later, Capt. George Doughty came
in, he's in charge of the crime lab.
Mr. BALL. And what did he do?
Mr. SIMS. He just stayed a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. How do you spell his name?
Mr. SIMS. (spelling). D-o-u-g-h-t-y--George Doughty.
Mr. BALL. Now, did they make paraffin tests?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. They made casts at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Of what?
Mr. SIMS. (reading from instrument in his possession). "He and Barnes
made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face."
Mr. BALL. That "he and Barnes"--who is "he"?
Mr. SIMS. That would be Johnny Hicks, I think.
Mr. BALL. That was Johnny Hicks and Lieutenant Barnes?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and Barnes is a sergeant.
Mr. BALL. Sergeant Barnes and Johnny Hicks made the paraffin casts?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Of both hands and what side of his face?
Mr. SIMS. And also the right side of his face.
Mr. BALL. Of whose face?
Mr. SIMS. Oswald's face.
Mr. BALL. Were you there when they were made?
Mr. SIMS. I was in the room--most of the time I was.
Mr. BALL. What time were these paraffin casts made?
Mr. SIMS. We started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I believe, they lasted
a good long while--I don't know how long.
Mr. BALL. What time were the paraffin casts made?
Mr. SIMS. I don't have any idea--it was sometime after 8:55.
Mr. BALL. Can you give me an outside limit on it?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at 8:55, I
guess--that would take--just a rough guess, 10 or 15 minutes to do
that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations
then for the paraffin tests.
Mr. BALL. Would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later
than 10 o'clock that day?
Mr. SIMS. Not later than 10?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say. I know that they were in the office
there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his
face.
Mr. BALL. Then what happened?
Mr. SIMS. Well, at 11:30 p.m., Barratt and I made out the arrest sheets
on Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Where was Oswald then?
Mr. SIMS. He was there and he was still in the office there.
Mr. BALL. Did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he
was there in the office?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he was present when we did it or not.
Mr. BALL. But he was still in the interrogation room of Captain Fritz'
office?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know who that would be.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. SIMS. We made out the arrest sheets on Oswald and shortly
afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came into the office there,
came back to the office, and told us to take Oswald down out in front
of the stage at the showup room.
Mr. BALL. Why did you do that?
Mr. SIMS. Because we were told to.
Mr. BALL. Was that usual to do that?
Mr. SIMS. Is it usual?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. SIMS. Yes; it's unusual.
Mr. BALL. Unusual to do it?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. He didn't tell you why he did it?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do it for?
Mr. SIMS. Just for the press, I believe.
Mr. BALL. For the press?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do?
Mr. SIMS. We--shortly before midnight--we took him down to the--they
call it--it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room
is--the assembly room.
Mr. BALL. And was he on the stage?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where was he?
Mr. SIMS. He was in front of the stage.
Mr. BALL. And--in front of the stage?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what happened?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he had--the room was full of newspapermen.
Mr. BALL. And what did they do?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I believe they had a little short interview there with
him.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask him questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did he answer?
Mr. SIMS. He answered; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were the television cameras in there also?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And this was about what time?
Mr. SIMS. Well, it would be about 12--we kept him in there about 5
minutes and went to the jail office about 12:20, so that would have
been about, I guess, about 12:15.
Mr. BALL. Tell me exactly what Chief Curry told you before you took him
down there--what were his exact instructions?
Mr. SIMS. I don't believe Chief Curry said anything to me.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz told you to take him down there?
Mr. SIMS. We were told to take him down to the press--to the police
assembly room.
Mr. BALL. Who gave you those specific orders?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say who gave me those specific orders.
Mr. BALL. Do you think it was Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. I just don't remember who it was.
Mr. BALL. You have stated in your notes that Chief Curry came to Fritz'
office and told you to take Oswald down in front of the stage at the
showup room?
Mr. SIMS. Let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * *
shortly afterwards Chief Curry and Captain Fritz came to Captain Fritz'
office and told us to take Oswald down out in front of the stage at the
showup room."
Mr. BALL. Does that look like it was Curry that told you that?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know which one of them told us.
Mr. BALL. Did one of the two tell you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; evidently they did.
Mr. BALL. And what else did they tell you?
Mr. SIMS. (Reading from instrument in his hand.) "Chief Curry gave us
instructions not to let anyone touch Oswald, and if they attempted to
do so, for us to take him to jail immediately."
Mr. BALL. This was in connection with the press interview with Oswald,
wasn't it?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what questions were asked Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had shot the President?
Mr. SIMS. I believe that was asked--yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he tell them?