Mr. SIMS. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have.
Mr. BALL. The stage and the outer part of the room?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Are there seats in the room?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What kind of seats?
Mr. SIMS. They are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something
like this here.
Mr. BALL. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--Perry and Clark.
Mr. BALL. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And why did you have to have them come down with you?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know why they did.
Mr. BALL. Who instructed them to go with you?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the
showup so we went with them.
Mr. BALL. During the showup, were they part of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald
and this jailer.
Mr. BALL. How were they dressed?
Mr. SIMS. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know
how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off--I know.
Mr. BALL. Were they handcuffed?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. They were handcuffed together?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; all of them was handcuffed.
Mr. BALL. Now, there were four of them altogether?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. In the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What were their names?
Mr. SIMS. They were--well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Give their full names, if you will.
Mr. SIMS. All right.
Mr. BALL. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. SIMS. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the
Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3
was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don
Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk.
Mr. BALL. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know who selected him.
Mr. BALL. Does he have his office in the jail?
Mr. SIMS. Well, yes, sir; the jail office--he works in there.
Mr. BALL. Can you give me just a general description of what these
fellows look like?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and
about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue
eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has
blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion.
Now, these weights could be different now--I don't know. Don Ables is
26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair.
Mr. BALL. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have?
Mr. SIMS. I don't have that here--I believe he's just ruddy complexion,
I believe.
Mr. BALL. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the
audience?
Mr. SIMS. I was on the stage.
Mr. BALL. And did you hear anything that was said from the audience
part of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you hear?
Mr. SIMS. Well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few
questions.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was that asked the questions in the
first showup?
Mr. SIMS. I'm not positive, but I believe it was Detective Leavelle in
our office conducted the first showup.
Mr. BALL. And what questions did they ask?
Mr. SIMS. I couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age
and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just
a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words.
Mr. BALL. Did Leavelle ask all of the questions?
Mr. SIMS. He asked all four of the men in the showup.
Mr. BALL. How did Oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and
what he said?
Mr. SIMS. Well, he just acted more or less like the other--acted
natural.
Mr. BALL. Answered the questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he protest any?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that he had a T-shirt on and no one else had a
T-shirt on?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; now, I think the showup that I didn't conduct the
next day, I believe he refused to answer questions or said something
about a T-shirt or something.
Mr. BALL. He didn't say anything of that sort?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups I was in.
Mr. BALL. He answered the questions?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything else from the audience side of the
showup?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't know who was out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the
witnesses out there?
Mr. SIMS. I don't believe I did--I don't believe so.
Mr. BALL. Did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this
showup?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. After this showup, what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. We brought Oswald back to the office there.
Mr. BALL. To the interrogation room?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; back to Captain Fritz' office at 4:20.
Mr. BALL. At 4:20?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office at that time?
Mr. SIMS. The FBI agents and Secret Service agents talked to Oswald
some more.
Mr. BALL. What were their names?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know their names.
Mr. BALL. You didn't record the names of the Secret Service officers?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, do you remember how long this interrogation of Oswald
took place?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at 6:20,
so that would be a matter of 2 hours. Now, whether he was in Captain
Fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the
time or Captain Fritz' office all the time, I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Now, at this second interrogation at Captain Fritz' office
beginning at 4:20, was Oswald handcuffed?
Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I can't tell you--I don't remember if he were
handcuffed or not.
Mr. BALL. Did you make any notes of what was said at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I never did make any notes of any of the
interrogation.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything that was said at 4:20?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any memory at all?
Mr. SIMS. No.
Mr. BALL. Could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you
heard there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I couldn't say for sure what was said or what he
told Captain Fritz or the agents either.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask any questions?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; the only time I would talk to him would be when
Captain Fritz would be out of the office and then Boyd and I, or
whoever was in the office with him would talk to him.
Mr. BALL. But at this time when the Secret Service and the FBI were in
Captain Fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No.
Mr. BALL. Did anyone--any Secret Service man or any FBI man ask him
questions at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; they asked him questions.
Mr. BALL. Did you know those men?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I know a good many of them here--I didn't have their
names--I don't remember who it was.
Mr. BALL. You don't remember who was in there at the time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, at 6:20 there was another showup, was there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And where was Oswald before you took him to that showup?
Mr. SIMS. He would be there in Captain Fritz' office there in the city
hall.
Mr. BALL. And you took him where?
Mr. SIMS. Back down to the same stage--on the stage there.
Mr. BALL. Who was in this second showup?
Mr. SIMS. The same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the
first one.
Mr. BALL. Mention their names again.
Mr. SIMS. All right, the second showup was at 6:20, approximately,
and there was W. E. Perry, police officer, Richard Clark, police
department, and Don Ables, jail civilian clerk.
Mr. BALL. Were these men handcuffed at this time?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were handcuffed.
Mr. BALL. Were they dressed the same?
Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were they dressed differently than Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know they didn't have the color of clothes on or
things like that.
Mr. BALL. Did they have ties on?
Mr. SIMS. I don't recall if they did or not.
Mr. BALL. Oswald had a T-shirt on, didn't he?
Mr. SIMS. He had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he
had a white T-shirt on underneath that.
Mr. BALL. Underneath that?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; underneath that.
Mr. BALL. His clothes were rougher looking than the other men?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the
officers were, as far as their clothes.
Mr. BALL. Well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they
have coats on--did anyone have a coat on?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't believe--Mr. Ables--I'm pretty sure he didn't
have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on--I
don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not they had ties on?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Who conducted the showup?
Mr. SIMS. Well, the second showup, I'm not positive, but I believe I
conducted the second showup.
Mr. BALL. How did you conduct it?
Mr. SIMS. Well, they are all under a number and I would have them--one,
two, three, and four, and No. 1 stand on that center back square there
and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where
they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised.
Mr. BALL. Did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you know the names of any of the witnesses?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any conversation that came from the audience
side of the showup?
Mr. SIMS. None that I can recall.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers
assigned to these people?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. All right.
Mr. SIMS. I'm sure I did.
Mr. BALL. Well, I wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned
to the second showup.
Mr. SIMS. The first showup at 4:05 was No. 1, Bill Perry, Lee Oswald,
R. L. Clark, and Don Ables.
Mr. BALL. That was the order--one, two, three, four?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; one, two, three, four.
Mr. BALL. Now, give us the order of the second showup?
Mr. SIMS. Numbered the same for the second showup.
Mr. BALL. The same numbers?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. The same men?
Mr. SIMS. Same men and same numbers.
Mr. BALL. After that showup, what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. We went back to Captain Fritz' office, and let me see, at
6:37, we left the showup and went back to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. We stayed with Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint
was signed by Fritz that evening?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you present when that happened?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was Oswald present also?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was present when the murder complaint was signed?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did this take place?
Mr. SIMS. In Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. And who was present?
Mr. SIMS. Well, let me see--Justice of the Peace Dave Johnston, and
Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and I don't know who else
was there--I don't know who else was present.
Mr. BALL. Was the judge there--the justice judge--the J.P., Dave
Johnston?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Bill Alexander and Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you? And Boyd?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And Oswald was there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Was anything said to Oswald about the signing of a murder
complaint?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was said, and who said it?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what was said--I know Judge Johnston talked
to him and Captain Fritz talked to him.
Mr. BALL. And did Alexander talk to him?
Mr. SIMS. I believe he did, but I'm not positive about that.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Judge Johnston said?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed
against him?
Mr. SIMS. I believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. For what murder?
Mr. SIMS. For Officer Tippit.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what Oswald said?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do with Oswald after that?
Mr. SIMS. At 7:40 we entered the third showup.
Mr. BALL. Now, at 7:30 an FBI agent came in, didn't he, according to
your records?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; at 7:30--we sat in the office with Oswald and Mr.
Clements of the FBI came in and interrogated Oswald.
Mr. BALL. You and Boyd were there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did Clements ask him?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the questions he asked him.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear what Oswald said?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; but I don't remember what the answers were.
Mr. BALL. Then, when was the next showup?
Mr. SIMS. At 7:40.
Mr. BALL. And who were the men in the third showup?
Mr. SIMS. Well, the third showup was No. 1--a Richard Walker [spelling]
B-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t.
Mr. BALL. Borchgardt--what is his address; do you have that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't have his address. He was a city prisoner.
Mr. BALL. Do you know what he was charged with at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir--I have his arrest number and his I.D. number.
Mr. BALL. And then was he No. 1?