The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 6,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John
Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr. BALL. Will you stand up and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. SIMS. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. SIMS. Richard M. Sims.
Mr. BALL. And what is your business or occupation?
Mr. SIMS. Police department, city of Dallas.
Mr. BALL. And what is your position with the police department?
Mr. SIMS. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau since August 2,
1948.
Mr. BALL. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were
born and educated and what you have done before you went with the
police department?
Mr. SIMS. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to
school--grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called
Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and
joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I
came to work down here when I was 23.
Mr. BALL. With the police department?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you have been with them ever since?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And you have been with homicide how long?
Mr. SIMS. Since September 1957.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?
Mr. SIMS. Well, actually, my hours of duty were from 4 to midnight, but
because the President was going to be in Dallas, I came to work early
because we was assigned with Captain Fritz to be down at the Trade Mart
when the President arrived.
Mr. BALL. What time did you go to the Trade Mart?
Mr. SIMS. It was around 10 o'clock, I believe.
Mr. BALL. In the morning?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; 10 a.m.--Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot?
Mr. SIMS. We were at the President's table. Chief Stevenson called
Captain Fritz over and told him the President had been involved in an
accident.
Mr. BALL. That was about what time of day?
Mr. SIMS. That was about 12:40, I believe, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. Chief Stevenson told us to go to the hospital. Parkland
Hospital, so we did.
Mr. BALL. Whom did you go with?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I, and I drove.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz is the head of homicide squadron, isn't he?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And Boyd is your partner?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; Boyd is my partner since 1957.
Mr. BALL. And what did you do over there when you got to Parkland?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at Parkland and we saw that Chief Curry
was there in front of the hospital, so he directed us back to the
Depository Store, down to the Book Store.
Mr. BALL. Tell me this--what did he say--what did he tell you to do?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember the exact words, but he told us to go back
to the store at the triple underpass--I don't remember what it was--I
couldn't say for sure.
Mr. BALL. Did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone
in the Texas Depository Book Building that had done the shooting?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think at that time it was strictly speculation
from where the shot had been fired.
Mr. BALL. He just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting?
Mr. SIMS. Yes--as I said, I couldn't say for sure.
Mr. BALL. Did you go back there--back to Elm and Houston?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill
Decker rode back with us.
Mr. BALL. And you went right to the building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there--in front of the
building.
Mr. BALL. On the way back, did you hear anything over the radio?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we heard them mention the Book Store.
Mr. BALL. What did they say--what did you hear?
Mr. SIMS. Well, now, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. You heard something about it?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; we went there for some reason--I know that.
Mr. BALL. Was it something you heard over the radio that directed you
to go there?
Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the store and parked there in front.
Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and
proceeded to the building, went in the building.
Mr. BALL. What door of the building did you go in?
Mr. SIMS. The front door.
Mr. BALL. Who was with you?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.
Mr. BALL. Could you tell me about what time you got to the building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I got it here--about 12:58--about 1 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. The radio log of that day at 12:36 shows that the following
was broadcast from the police radio log: "The witness says shots came
from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store at Houston and
Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Do you think you heard that?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I wouldn't have heard that. We didn't hear about the
shooting until 12:40, but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't
have went directly to the Book Store like we did.
Mr. BALL. At 12:45, there was a broadcast that stated: "All the
information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor
of that building."
"Which building?"
"The Texas Depository Building at Elm and Houston."
Do you know whether you could have heard that?
Mr. SIMS. Well, our radio was on--I could have heard, that; yes, sir.
We got to the hospital, I guess, about that time and we did have our
radio on.
Mr. BALL. When you went in the front door, who was with you?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go?
Mr. SIMS. We went directly to the elevator.
Mr. BALL. Which elevator?
Mr. SIMS. The main passenger elevator.
Mr. BALL. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the
third floor and then the freight elevator takes over.
Mr. BALL. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the
building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you went as far as it could go, did you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Mr. SIMS. Then, we caught the freight elevator.
Mr. BALL. That would be in another part of the building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building.
Mr. BALL. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight
elevator?
Mr. SIMS. I believe--I'm not positive whether they did or not.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go from there?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers
there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor,
actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go first?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first.
Mr. BALL. Now, were you on the elevator at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir--it was full of officers.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who some of the officers were?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant
Revill was there, I believe.
Mr. BALL. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers.
Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with
us.
Mr. BALL. Are they with homicide?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau.
Mr. BALL. What is the special service bureau?
Mr. SIMS. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover
work.
Mr. BALL. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go then?
Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor
and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room
and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers
on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if
we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh
floor--each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't
been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while--until someone
hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went
back to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the
hulls?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls
had been found.
Mr. BALL. And you could hear them?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; you could hear them.
Mr. BALL. Did you go down the stairway?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I
remember.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator?
Mr. SIMS. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--I
don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the
sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor?
Mr. SIMS. We went over to the corner window there.
Mr. BALL. Which corner?
Mr. SIMS. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there--it
would be the southeast corner.
Mr. BALL. It was the southeast corner?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And what did you see?
Mr. SIMS. We saw the boxes stacked up about--I don't know--three or
four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the
wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building.
Mr. BALL. Who was there when you saw them?
Mr. SIMS. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got
there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I
have his name here someplace.
Mr. BALL. Was he a deputy sheriff?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff.
Mr. BALL. And who else--Luke Mooney?
Mr. SIMS. Yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--I
don't know who all.
Mr. BALL. And did Luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls
or not?
Mr. SIMS. He said he had left them like he had found them.
Mr. BALL. Did you take a picture of those hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Lieutenant Day did, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Was he there right at the time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the picture taken of the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You saw Day take the pictures, did you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was the cameraman, was he?
Mr. SIMS. Well, there was another one there too. Actually, it was
Detective Studebaker that works for him.
Mr. BALL. Studebaker and Day?
Mr. SIMS. I believe it was Studebaker.
Mr. BALL. Did they both have cameras?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if they both had cameras or not.
Mr. BALL. You saw one of them at least take a picture?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I know pictures was being taken.
Mr. BALL. When the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same
position as when you had first seen them?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr. BALL. What else did you see that day?
Mr. SIMS. Well, someone then hollered--we started a search of the sixth
floor then, going from east to west--all the officers, and someone had
found the rifle over by the stairway.
Mr. BALL. That would be in what corner of the building?
Mr. SIMS. That would be in actually the northwest corner of the
building.
Mr. BALL. And what happened then?
Mr. SIMS. Then, we went over to where the rifle was found.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the rifle?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; I saw the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Where was the rifle?
Mr. SIMS. It was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by
some paper.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any pictures taken of that? Of the rifle at that
location?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Who took that picture?
Mr. SIMS. Well, it was either Studebaker or Lieutenant Day.
Mr. BALL. Who saw the picture taken--did you?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And then what did you do?
Mr. SIMS. Then we finished there and went--started to go to the city
hall.
Mr. BALL. You said you finished there, did you see anything of
significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see a paper bag?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there.
Mr. BALL. Where did you see it?
Mr. SIMS. It was there by the hulls.
Mr. BALL. Was it right there near the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. As well as I remember--of course, I didn't pay too much
attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of
where the boxes were piled up--that would be a guess--I believe that's
where it was.
Mr. BALL. On the east side of where the boxes were--would that be the
east?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know
there was some loose paper there.
Mr. BALL. Was Johnson there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed
Johnson and Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were
found.
Mr. BALL. To stay there?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by
the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the
wrapper to the hulls.
Mr. BALL. Was the window open in the southeast corner?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes near the window?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between
the boxes and the window.
Mr. BALL. Were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge?
Mr. SIMS. Yes; there was, I believe, I'm not positive about this, a
couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the
window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window
about 3 or 4 feet high, I guess.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the
window--what position they were on the window ledge?
Mr. SIMS. Well, Lieutenant Day took a picture of all the surrounding
area there.
Mr. BALL. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book
Depository Building?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, I
think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a
minute or two. Let's see--we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we
went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Now, when you left, you say that Captain Fritz told Johnson
and Montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. I believe it was during--before Lieutenant Day got up there,
I believe.
Mr. BALL. And it was after that that you went to the place where the
rifle was found?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Then did you go back to the place where the hulls were
located on the floor?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That's when the picture was taken?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he was making pictures during that time.
Mr. BALL. Who picked up the hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up.
Mr. BALL. There were three hulls?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in?
Mr. SIMS. He had an envelope.
Mr. BALL. Did he take charge of the hulls there?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Did he take them in his possession, I mean?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or
not.
Mr. BALL. But you helped him pick them up?
Mr. SIMS. I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there
and he held the envelope open.
Mr. BALL. You didn't take them in your possession, did you?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't believe I did.
Mr. BALL. When the rifle was found, were you there?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were,
I believe.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day--he dusted the rifle there
for fingerprints.
Mr. BALL. And did you see Fritz do anything?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition
out of the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Do you know who took possession of that live round?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BALL. Now, you left the building about what time?
Mr. SIMS. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock--I'll have
to look at the record--on this--about 2:15--we left there evidently
about 2 o'clock.
Mr. BALL. You and who?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz and Boyd.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. SIMS. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent
word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff
and then we went to the city hall.
Mr. BALL. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office--I stayed out
in the corridor there.
Mr. BALL. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas
School Depository Building?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; it's across the street.
Mr. BALL. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are
located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston?
Mr. SIMS. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's
see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks.
Mr. BALL. A couple of miles--a mile and a half?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know what it is.
Mr. BALL. When you went back to your offices, was Fritz there at that
time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; he went back with Boyd and I.
Mr. BALL. After you left Decker's?
Mr. SIMS. He went back with Boyd and I.
Mr. BALL. What happened when you went back to your office?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full
of people and I think----
Mr. BALL. You say it was full of people?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You mean the floor was full of people?
Mr. SIMS. Our office was--I don't remember about the people.
Mr. BALL. What people?
Mr. SIMS. Officers--police officers, I don't know who all was up there,
all I know is that there was a lot of people.
Mr. BALL. Had the press moved in and the television cameras at that
time?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember what time they had moved in--I don't
remember.
Mr. BALL. Tell me what happened when you got back?
Mr. SIMS. Well, sir, I think he talked to a detective then--he's a
lieutenant now--Captain Fritz talked to Baker and said, "While we was
up in the Book Depository Store we heard Officer Tippit had been shot,"
and so Baker, I believe, told Captain Fritz that they had the man that
had shot Officer Tippit, in the interrogation room.
Mr. BALL. Who was that Baker?
Mr. SIMS. He was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. He has
been in the office there for several years.
Mr. BALL. Baker told Fritz that Tippit had been shot?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the
Book Store, but he told Captain Fritz that the man that shot Officer
Tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect.
Mr. BALL. What happened then?
Mr. SIMS. Well, I don't know, let's see, we took Oswald at 2:20, Boyd
and I, took Oswald from the interrogation room to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. BALL. You and Boyd?
Mr. SIMS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. At 2:20 took Oswald--that's the first time you saw Oswald?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation
room.
Mr. BALL. And who was in Fritz' office at that time?
Mr. SIMS. Well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was Mr.
Bookhout, that's Jim Bookhout, and Mr. Hosty, and Boyd and I and
Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. Did you make notes of what was said at that time?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Did your partner, Boyd, make notes, do you think?
Mr. SIMS. I don't know if he did or not.
Mr. BALL. Do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory
as to what was said in that interrogation?
Mr. SIMS. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You have some memory of what was said, don't you?
Mr. SIMS. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions.
Mr. BALL. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there
at that time.
Mr. SIMS. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his
name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked.
Mr. BALL. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not
complete, just tell us as much as you can remember?
Mr. SIMS. I don't remember--I know, like I say, he asked him his name
and where he worked and things of that nature.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit?
Mr. SIMS. Yes, sir; I believe he did.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?