The testimony of Ray Hawkins was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 3, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel
of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Will you raise your hand and take the oath, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before
this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?
Mr. HAWKINS. I do.
Mr. BALL. Will you state your name, please?
Mr. HAWKINS. Ray Hawkins.
Mr. BALL. And your address, where do you live now?
Mr. HAWKINS. 7319 Cortland as of today. I am moving today.
Mr. BALL. What is your business or occupation?
Mr. HAWKINS. I am with the Dallas Police Department. I am an accident
investigator.
Mr. BALL. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. HAWKINS. It will be 11 years in June.
Mr. BALL. Tell me something about yourself--where you were born and
your education and what you have done?
Mr. HAWKINS. I was born in Dallas at Parkland Hospital. I attended the
Dallas schools except for 2 years when I lived in Denison and I served
3 years and 4 months in the Coast Guard. I worked at the post office
after getting out of the service and then I worked for Dallas Power &
Light before coming to the police department some 11 years ago. I have
been in the traffic division 8 years last month, which my primary duty
is accident investigation. Before this time I served about 3 years in
the radio patrol division.
Mr. BALL. On November 22, 1963, you were on duty, were you?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BALL. What were your hours of duty?
Mr. HAWKINS. I was working the 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift that day.
Mr. BALL. And were you assigned some special duty because of the
presence of the President in the city?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; on this day I was working accidents, which is
my regular duty. I was working with an officer by the name of Elmer
Baggett who had just transferred back into accident and I was giving
him a refresher course in the regular duties of accident investigation.
Mr. BALL. Do you work in uniform?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. BALL. In the regular patrolman's uniform?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--the regular patrolman uniform.
Mr. BALL. You drive an automobile?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes; I do.
Mr. BALL. Is it a marked police car?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes--it is the blue and white marked police car.
Mr. BALL. And where were you around 1 o'clock?
Mr. HAWKINS. I'm not sure on the time--around it--if it was about the
time of the assassination--I was--we were on an accident in the 2500
block of North Industrial, or in that vicinity, the first I had heard
anything about this accident.
Mr. BALL. You and your partner?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And did you hear the President had been killed?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you later hear that Officer Tippit had been killed?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you make a note of the time, or do you have any memory of
the approximate time that you heard that report?
Mr. HAWKINS. I would say in the vicinity of around 1 p.m.--I'm not sure
what time it was, because I didn't make any notes. As I said, we were
on an accident at the time--I cleared from the call about the time we
heard this information.
Mr. BALL. And you got that information over the police radio?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Tell me, did you receive any instructions as to what to do?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not. They called--I heard a citizen come
in on the radio and state that an officer had been shot and it looked
like he was dead. We had just finished the accident at this time and I
was driving an officer, Baggett, and I proceeded to Oak Cliff to the
general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher,
stating that we were proceeding in that direction.
We arrived in Oak Cliff and there were several squads in the general
vicinity of where the shooting had occurred--different stories had come
out that the person was--the suspect had been seen in the immediate
vicinity.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to 10th and Patton?
Mr. HAWKINS. We drove by 10th and Patton--we didn't stop at the
location.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?
Mr. HAWKINS. We circled the vicinity around Jefferson and Marsalis and
in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they
had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and
then they received a call, or I believe Officer Walker put out a call
that he had just seen a white man running to the Oak Cliff Library, at
which time we proceeded to this location. Officer Hutson had gotten
into the car with us when we arrived in Oak Cliff, and there were three
of us in the squad car--Officer Baggett, Officer Hutson, and myself.
Mr. BALL. Hutson is also a patrolman?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. A uniformed patrolman?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer. We went to the
library and this turned out to be an employee of the library who had
heard of the news and was apparently running in the library to tell the
other employees there.
We then, after this checked out, we then continued circling in the area
around 10th and Patton and Marsalis and Jefferson.
We then heard on the police radio that a suspicious person was at the
Texas Theatre, and at this time we proceeded to the theatre.
Mr. BALL. Where did you park?
Mr. HAWKINS. I parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the
theatre.
Mr. BALL. Then, what did you do?
Mr. HAWKINS. Officer--I believe Officer McDonald was at the back door
at the time and Officer Hutson and Captain Westbrook and Officer Walker
and myself went in the rear door, all went to the rear door, and at
this time we saw a white male there and began talking to him and he
identified himself as being the manager of a shoe store next door and
that he was the person who had noted the suspicious acting on the
suspect, and he at that time was brought into the rear of the theatre
and on the stage and he pointed the person out sitting about three or
four rows from the back of the theatre on the right hand or the south
side.
Mr. BALL. That would be near the right aisle as you face the screen?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; near the right aisle as you face the screen
about four rows from the rear of the theatre.
Mr. BALL. And how many seats over from the right aisle?
Mr. HAWKINS. I would say probably three or four--I don't remember
exactly.
Mr. BALL. Now, at that time you were standing behind the screen, were
you?
Mr. HAWKINS. No; we had walked out onto the stage itself and could
see the people sitting in the show--the house lights had been turned
on--the show was still going on, but we did walk out onto the stage.
Mr. BALL. And did you later learn that the man's name was Brewer?
Mr. HAWKINS. The man whom I had been talking to?
Mr. BALL. Yes; the shoe salesman.
Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember what his name is, but I think he did
identify himself and we did have his name.
Mr. BALL. Were you armed?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr. BALL. With what?
Mr. HAWKINS. I had my Service .38 revolver.
Mr. BALL. Did you have it out or was it in your holster?
Mr. HAWKINS. I believe I had it out.
Mr. BALL. What did you do with it?
Mr. HAWKINS. At that time, after he pointed out the person, Officer
McDonald had started up the left aisle and he stopped and talked to two
boys who were sitting about three rows in front of where Oswald was
sitting. I continued up the north aisle or the left aisle as you would
walk toward the screen, and then Officer McDonald had walked on back to
this person who was seated back there.
Mr. BALL. He was--he walked over to the right aisle, did he?
Mr. HAWKINS. He walked from the right aisle and came in from the
person's right. I was about three rows from--still in the same aisle,
on the left aisle and about three rows from McDonald and Oswald when I
heard him say, "I've got him," or "This is it," or some words to that
effect.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr. HAWKINS. Not at that time; no, sir; I did not.
Mr. BALL. What happened then?
Mr. HAWKINS. They had a scuffle and I immediately ran to the location.
Officer Hutson had come in the aisle behind Oswald and McDonald and
Officer Walker had come in on the left-hand side and I came up in the
front. I grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs
out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around
as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with
both hands behind his back.
Mr. BALL. Now, did you see Oswald strike Officer McDonald?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. With what--with his fist?
Mr. HAWKINS. It appeared he struck him with his fist.
Mr. BALL. Which one?
Mr. HAWKINS. Right fist.
Mr. BALL. What was Officer McDonald doing at that time?
Mr. HAWKINS. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I
arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--Oswald and
McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I
got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled
across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre.
Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember,
Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he
took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear any snap of the hammer?
Mr. HAWKINS. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know
whether it was a snap of a pistol--I later learned that they were sure
it was. I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it
was in the seats someone making the noise.
Mr. BALL. There was some noise you heard?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr. BALL. You couldn't identify it?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I don't think so--I don't think I could say for
sure.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I
said, they had gotten back into the seat and officer Hutson had grabbed
Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the
gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and
Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left
hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the
scene.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any officer there with a shotgun?
Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall any officers. I know I had seen some
officers with a shotgun, but I don't recall whether any officer had
one, but it is possible that they did have.
Mr. BALL. The men who were struggling with Oswald were first, McDonald,
and you----
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And who was the other man?
Mr. HAWKINS. Now, Officer Hutson had gotten behind Oswald prior to the
time I got there and then also Walker was on the left-hand side--on the
left hand.
Mr. BALL. Oswald's left?
Mr. HAWKINS. Oswald's left.
Mr. BALL. And who was on the right?
Mr. HAWKINS. McDonald.
Mr. BALL. And what about Bob Carroll, did he come in there too?
Mr. HAWKINS. Well, I'm sure Bob was in there. I couldn't say where he
was exactly or--I do remember Sergeant Hill being there, and I believe
he said, "I've got the gun." I think I read an account of where Bob
Carroll may have had the gun, but I was under the impression it was
Sergeant Hill. I'm sure Bob was there, but I don't know exactly--it was
all happening pretty fast.
Mr. BALL. Did any one of these men you have described around Oswald
have a shotgun?
Mr. HAWKINS. I don't believe any of them--at the time that they were
standing directly around Oswald, had a shotgun--I may be mistaken.
Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that while they were struggling
with Oswald, a police officer took a gun and took it by the muzzle and
struck Oswald in the back with the rifle butt; did you see anything
like that?
Mr. HAWKINS. No; I did not. I couldn't say that it did not happen.
I didn't see from the back, but I do know that Officer Hutson was
standing behind him and had grabbed him around the neck and I'm sure
that he did not have a gun.
Mr. BALL. Hutson did not have a shotgun?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. BALL. Did Oswald say anything during this struggle?
Mr. HAWKINS. I don't recall anything he said during the struggle--I
do recall some remarks that he made about--that he had certain rights
and that he would see "about this police brutality" or some remark he
made about--that he had rights and he wasn't being handled right or
something of this nature.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody strike Oswald during the struggle except
in the grabbing and holding of him--I know you grabbed him and held
him, but did you see anybody strike him a blow?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; I did not see anyone strike him a blow.
Mr. BALL. Afterwards, did you notice any marks on Oswald's face?
Mr. HAWKINS. I did notice, not at that time, but I did notice, however,
after I saw him on television that he had a bruise on the right side of
his face.
Mr. BALL. Did you see that bruise there at the theatre?
Mr. HAWKINS. Not at the theatre; no, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you with the group of officers that took him from the
theatre?
Mr. HAWKINS. I was walking with the group--I was not immediately beside
Oswald. At this time, I believe, Officer Walker and possibly Officer
Lyons and Paul Bentley and I don't remember, but I believe those
three were one of the three and maybe Sergeant Hill. We handcuffed
him and after we had handcuffed him we walked him out to the left
and immediately to the car in front. They put him in the car--I was
standing beside the car and then I worked traffic for them to get out.
Mr. BALL. As he was going out of the theatre, was he shouting or
yelling?
Mr. HAWKINS. Was he?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember him saying anything except this about
that he had certain rights and the police brutality.
Mr. BALL. Did he say that as he was leaving the theatre, or did he say
that in the theatre?
Mr. HAWKINS. It seemed like we were still in the theatre. After we got
outside, I couldn't hear him say anything. There was a large crowd out
front and they all started yelling when we came out the front door.
Mr. BALL. A witness testified yesterday that as the police brought
Oswald from the theatre to the car, that two men were standing beside
him, were walking beside him, and that another officer had his arm
around his neck and under his chin so as to close his mouth--did you
see anything like that?
Mr. HAWKINS. I don't remember seeing this. I walked out--the best I
can remember--I was behind the group and there were at least three
officers, I am sure, directly around him and maybe more, but I was
behind him and walked up behind him--I don't recall anyone having him
around the neck at that time.
Mr. BALL. Did you do any more work on the investigation of the
assassination of the President or the killing of Tippit?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; the only thing I did following this--we went to
the personnel bureau and made a statement, or wrote a report on the
arrest, and that was the last thing I had done.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the pistol at the personnel bureau?
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BALL. Did you see McDonald mark it?
Mr. HAWKINS. Did I see McDonald mark it?
Mr. BALL. Yes.
Mr. HAWKINS. Yes, sir; McDonald, and I believe Sergeant Hill marked it
or possibly Bob Carroll. There were, I believe, two people who marked
it.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody unload the gun?
Mr. HAWKINS. No, sir; not unload it. I believe the gun was unloaded
whenever I got there, but they put Oswald in the car and three or four
men rode with him and then Officer Baggett and I came back to the
station and it was probably 30 to 45 minutes after they got there that
we arrived at the station.
Mr. BALL. Did you see the bullets?
Mr. HAWKINS. I saw the bullets--yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever examine them closely?
Mr. HAWKINS. I looked at them and one of them appeared to have a small
indentation where it looked like it might have been struck and did not
fire.
Mr. BALL. I think that's all, officer.
Now, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it, or you
can waive signature--just as you wish--which do you prefer?
Mr. HAWKINS. I would just as soon sign it.
Mr. BALL. All right, we will have you sign it.
Mr. HAWKINS. All right.
Mr. BALL. Thank you very much.
Mr. HAWKINS. Will you notify me when you want me to sign it?
Mr. BALL. We will give you a telephone call.
Mr. HAWKINS. You will give me a telephone call?
Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HAWKINS. All right.
Mr. BALL. Thank you very much.