THE PRESIDENT: The document is a new document, is it not?
M. FAURE: Yes, Mr. President, it is a document which I would like to
submit under the Exhibit Number RF-1501. It belongs to the “D” series;
it is D-734 of the British document books.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the defendant said whether he admits that it is a
substantially accurate account of the conversation?
VON RIBBENTROP: I can no longer say for certain, Mr. President; what I
did say at the time, I know only, and gather, from this document, from
these words, that the Jews were spreading news from British and American
sources. I can remember that at that time a large espionage and sabotage
organization was in existence, and that this organization was causing a
great deal of trouble in France, and that the Führer ordered me to
discuss the matter with Mussolini since the Italians were opposing
certain measures we had introduced in France. I spoke to Mussolini and
told him that the Führer was of the opinion that, where this question
was concerned, we should have to come to a definite understanding.
THE PRESIDENT: I think, Defendant, you have already told us that. The
question that I asked was whether you agreed that it was a substantially
accurate account of the conversation.
VON RIBBENTROP: I consider that in certain points the report is
incorrect, but fundamentally the position was as I have just explained
it.
M. FAURE: Now, you also spoke about this question with Horthy, did you
not?
VON RIBBENTROP: Yes. I had to confer several times with the Hungarian
Government so as to persuade them to do something about the Jewish
problem. The Führer was extremely insistent on this point. I therefore
discussed the question repeatedly with the Hungarian Ambassador and the
question was primarily to centralize the Jews somehow or other in some
part of Budapest, I think it was slightly outside Budapest or in—as a
matter of fact, I do not know Budapest very well—in any case, it was
somewhere in Budapest itself. That was the first point. And the second
point dealt with the removal of the Jews from influential Government
posts, since it had been proved that Jewish influence in these
departments was sufficiently authoritative to bring Hungary to a
separate peace.
M. FAURE: The document relating to your conversation or one of the
conversations which you had with Horthy has already been produced. It
was that of 17 April 1943. It is Document D-736, which was submitted as
GB-283.
During the interrogation of your witness, Schmidt, the British
prosecutor asked this witness if he admitted having compiled this
account, and this was confirmed by Schmidt. This note bears the
following remark at the bottom of the first paragraph: “The Foreign
Minister declared that the Jews were either to be exterminated or sent
to concentration camps. There was no other solution.”
You did say that, did you not?
VON RIBBENTROP: I definitely did not say it in those words. But I would
like to reply as follows:
It was apparently an account prepared by “Minister” Schmidt, as was his
habit, some days after a long discussion between the Führer and Horthy.
I have already said that the Führer had repeatedly charged me to talk to
Horthy, to the Hungarian Government, to the Ambassador, in order to
reach a solution of the Jewish question. At the time when Horthy visited
the Führer the Führer emphasized the question to him in a very irritable
manner, and I remember perfectly that subsequent to this discussion I
talked the matter over with “Minister” Schmidt, saying that I, strictly
speaking, had not quite understood the Führer.
The remark mentioned was definitely not made in this way. M. Horthy had
apparently said that he could not, after all, beat the Jews to death. It
is possible, since there would have been no question of that in any
case, that in this connection I did endeavor to persuade Horthy to do
something or other at once about the Jewish question in Budapest,
namely, that he should undertake now the centralization which the Führer
had already wished to carry out for a long time. My objection or my
interpolation may have referred to this question.
I must add that the situation, at that time, was as follows: We had been
receiving repeated indications from Himmler, to the effect that Himmler
wished to handle the Jewish situation in Hungary himself. I did not want
this, since, one way or another, it would probably have created
political difficulties abroad.
Consequently, acting on the wish of the Führer, who was extremely
obstinate on this subject, I, as is known, repeatedly attempted to
smooth matters over and, at the same time, pin the Hungarians down to do
something about it in any case. Therefore, if, from a long conversation,
some remark has been extracted and summarized in brief, and contains
some such statement, it certainly does not mean that I wished the Jews
to be beaten to death. It was 100 percent contrary to my personal
convictions.
M. FAURE: I do not understand whether you answered my question or not. I
will have to ask you again. Is the report correct, or is it not correct?
VON RIBBENTROP: No, in this form it cannot be correct. These are notes.
I personally have never seen these notes before; otherwise I should have
said at once that this is nonsense and liable to misconstruction. I did
not see these notes before; I saw them for the first time in Nuremberg.
I can say only one thing which may possibly have occurred. I might have
said...well yes, “the Jews cannot be exterminated or beaten to death,
so, please do something in order that the Führer will be satisfied at
long last, and centralize the Jews.”
That was our aim, at that time at any rate. We did not want to render
the situation more acute, but we were trying to do something in Hungary
so that no other department could take the matter in hand, thereby
creating political difficulties abroad for the Foreign Office.
M. FAURE: You knew at that time that many Jews had been deported. That
may be gathered from your explanations.
THE PRESIDENT: Just one moment, please. Are you passing from this
document?